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Obama’s Path From Critic to Overseer of Spying

nytimes.com

171–180 of 199 posts

Re: Obama’s Path From Critic to Overseer of Spying

#171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is fascinating how people lay blame. The most common thing I see is my fellow Americans blaming politicians, bankers, school teachers, lobbyists, cops, unions, almost anyone... except themselves. The truth is, the American people are the problem, and they've spent the last few decades doing everything possible to avoid personal responsibility for the shape of the country.

A system that relies on all of it's constituents being informed and politically active in order to be successful is structurally unsound. This in my opinion is the true problem with our representational democracy. I am wary of blaming people who have difficulty day to day making ends meet for not caring enough about spying, etc.

I'm not sure the founding fathers could have predicted what laid in store for the country or the world.

We have reached the point, I believe, where it is impossible to expect the majority of the population to be knowledgeable in all the various facets of running one of the most powerful countries in the world. Economics. Cultures. Science. These are all words which could be separated into thousands of sub-topics. You're expecting somebody to be "informed" about stem-cells, the likely implications of raising the interest rate by 0.1%, the differences between computer "memory" and "storage", and the differences of bowing to or shaking the hand of another world leader. Plus somehow keeping a full-time job and raising a family.

This is where media is supposed to step up, do the research, and present the facts to the populace. I believe that a few people figured out long ago that if you can control the media, you control the country. It's a big ship and it steers rather slow, but I still think it is true.

Hell, we still live in a world where laws are created based on books written thousands of years ago, where people doubt global warming because "man cannot possibly change what God created" and/or because the bible doesn't mention it.

The problem is the same as it's always been: Us. Asshats worm their way into the system and through fear, money, charisma, or subterfuge they subvert whatever they can modify to suit their own desires. If anything what we need is a system that can prevent this somehow, which is what the founding fathers were attempting to create. The entire western culture (likely others as well), needs to change, and I don't see that happening without something major (think The Day the Earth Stood Still type shit here) happening.

Re: Obama’s Path From Critic to Overseer of Spying

#172
post #149
post #3

The headline might as well be a more Onionesque "After gaining power, politician turns out not to actually hold the strongly principled views he expressed while campaigning". I'd be surprised if Obama holds any of the views he expressed during his campaign. A campaign is a marketing effort intended to install a team of people in power. Generally speaking, the vast majority of power holders agree that aggressive spyin…

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/promises/obameter/ Promises kept: 45% Compromised: 25% Broken: 22% Stalled: 1% In the works: 6% not rated: 1% Your comment resonated with me, then I decided to check the facts.

Yeah you can tell that that those are facts, because it says so right there in the domain name.

Re: Obama’s Path From Critic to Overseer of Spying

#173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Even the much-maligned George Bush generally acted in keeping with the fundamental beliefs that he told the country he held prior to his election. Bush promised a humble foreign policy with no nation building. He had criticized the Clinton-Gore Administration for being too interventionist: "If we don't stop extending our troops all around the world in nation-building missions, then we're going to have a serious prob…

What's really funny about GWB is he did a negligible amount for the pro-life crowd. He dangled that fish in front of the rabid pro-lifers but did nothing for them except lip service. I don't want to get into an abortion debate. I'm just saying that the pro-lifers hardly get anything from any politician and it's just funny how they vote based on whatever the lip service is. The politicians have an incentive to never s…

He can't overturn Supreme Court decisions.

Re: Obama’s Path From Critic to Overseer of Spying

#174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd be surprised if Obama holds any of the views he expressed during his campaign. A campaign is a marketing effort intended to install a team of people in power. Usually we at least get to learn about candidates' fundamental views before electing them. A pro-life candidate, for example, isn't suddenly going to change that view after taking office. Even the much-maligned George Bush generally acted in keeping with th…

> This is what is so disturbing about Obama and his supporters. He told them bald faced lies about his fundamental views, and is fairly unapologetic about it. Can you give some examples? Seriously. I can't recall Obama giving a definitive opinion on anything. (e.g. his evolving "views" on gay marriage.) His detractors keep calling him a leftist, socialist even though he doesn't seem to have a strong (or passionate) o…

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WAQlsS9diBs

Re: Obama’s Path From Critic to Overseer of Spying

#175
Mr. Obama hasn't changed more than would be expected over several years and, while I can't speak with certainty, I would be very surprised to find out that he was lying about his views during the presidential campaign (I don't know about his promises).

He has more information than he did then. And he trusts himself to use these powers more than he did the Bush administration.

Even postulating some revolutionary secret information seems to me to be unnecessary.

Obama has always trusted himself. Most people do. What's changed is that the president is now someone who is trusted by Obama. Everything that's happened up to this point falls nicely out of those circumstances.

Re: Obama’s Path From Critic to Overseer of Spying

#176
post #83
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be fair, the American people are and have been the most heavily propagandized people on Earth. I sympathize with your desire to tell people to step up and take personal responsibility, but the truth is that many people can't even think straight. Look at how many people consistently vote against their own interests, identify with their oppressors, etc.

> the American people are and have been the most heavily propagandized people on Earth You have heard of North Korea, I hope?

Your point is well taken. However, propaganda in America is much more insidious than propaganda in North Korea. Don't get me wrong, North Korea is a brutal place and I thank my lucky stars I was born here and not there.

In America, there is always the illusion of a raging debate, which causes people to identify with the views they are presented. In places like North Korea, the propaganda is much more heavy-handed and if you step out of line you are punished much more severely. This causes people to pay lip service to the official views, but not necessarily to believe it in their hearts. In America, stepping out of line is tolerated - to a degree.

EDIT: So perhaps what I should have said originally is not that America is the most heavily propagandized population, but that Americans are the victims of the most sophisticated propaganda machine.

Re: Obama’s Path From Critic to Overseer of Spying

#177
post #86

OK: once he got in office, it turned out that watching everyone seemed like a good idea. But here's the thing: it's unconstitutional. It's illegal. "The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the…

This has been debunked to death. The issue isn't "houses, papers, and effects" not encompassing e-mail, but the "belonging to that person" aspect. Phone metadata doesn't "belong" to you. It belongs to your phone company. They generated it, they store it--you never even see it. It's also quite questionable how much of say your Facebook data "belongs" to you. Or your GPS location data. It's about you, but much or all o…

No -- the FISC has ruled that the third party doctrine makes NSA spying legal. The Supreme Court has not ruled on mass metadata collection.

Re: Obama’s Path From Critic to Overseer of Spying

#178
post #3

The headline might as well be a more Onionesque "After gaining power, politician turns out not to actually hold the strongly principled views he expressed while campaigning". I'd be surprised if Obama holds any of the views he expressed during his campaign. A campaign is a marketing effort intended to install a team of people in power. Generally speaking, the vast majority of power holders agree that aggressive spyin…

> I'd be surprised if Obama holds any of the views he expressed during his campaign. The evidence during his time in office and the battles he has chosen to fight from the White House suggests that the view he expressed during the campaign about the critical importance of health care reform toward a more universal system is, in fact, one that he holds in office. On a less policy and more meta-political level there ar…

> I would say, quite a few indications that his frequently expressed view that people who want change must "be the change [they] want" and not rely on getting some figure in office and then expecting change to magically happen on its own is also a belief he holds honestly in office.

A view he also expressed during a memorial I attended for the Washington Navy Yard shootings, in regards to gun control for those with mental illnesses. Sadly I think he's right.

Re: Obama’s Path From Critic to Overseer of Spying

#179
post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/promises/obameter/ Promises kept: 45% Compromised: 25% Broken: 22% Stalled: 1% In the works: 6% not rated: 1% Your comment resonated with me, then I decided to check the facts.

Yeah you can tell that that those are facts, because it says so right there in the domain name.

You're one of those "when the facts aren't with you, pound the table" types, eh?

Re: Obama’s Path From Critic to Overseer of Spying

#180

> At the same time, aides said Mr. Obama was surprised to learn after leaks by Edward J. Snowden, the former National Security Agency contractor, just how far the surveillance had gone. If this is meant to be taken at face value, and it's at least plausible given how the US government seems to operate, how can Obama not follow it up with at least a strong commitment to making the American security apparatus more clea…

Probably because unlike crypto, this is one of those areas where "security through obscurity" really is an aid. That has always been the tension between intelligence agencies and public oversight, it's not like NSA originated the problem.
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