Paul Graham Isn't Keeping Women out of Tech • Hacker News Board

Re: Paul Graham Isn't Keeping Women out of Tech

#171

Post by jfarmer » Mon, Dec 30, 2013, 2:44 PM UTC

baddox wrote: post #159

nollidge wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You say your questions are genuine, and then you obtusely interpret the answers you're given to suit the attitude you wish to project on your interlocutors. You could've saved everybody a lot of time if you didn't lie about your defensive intentions from the start.

My questions are genuine. That doesn't mean I can't point out ridiculous answers.

If you're admittedly ignorant, how can you tell whether the answer is ridiculous or there's something critical you're not understanding? What happens if the answer is not ridiculous but is utterly inconsistent with your current picture of the world?

Re: Paul Graham Isn't Keeping Women out of Tech

#172

Post by baddox » Mon, Dec 30, 2013, 4:59 PM UTC

jfarmer wrote: post #171

baddox wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My questions are genuine. That doesn't mean I can't point out ridiculous answers.

If you're admittedly ignorant, how can you tell whether the answer is ridiculous or there's something critical you're not understanding? What happens if the answer is not ridiculous but is utterly inconsistent with your current picture of the world?

> how can you tell whether the answer is ridiculous or there's something critical you're not understanding?

Did you read my responses? I explain why I think each quoted section is ridiculous. Most of the quoted sections are not empirical claims that I am disputing ("my current picture of the world"), but are rather claims about opinions or normative claims which I am disputing.

Re: Paul Graham Isn't Keeping Women out of Tech

#173

Post by baddox » Mon, Dec 30, 2013, 4:59 PM UTC

aredridel wrote: post #153

baddox wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That post is extremely long, and there's no way I'll make it far when it begins with things like: > One of the greatest things we, as privileged people, can bring to a discussion being held by non-privileged groups is our closed mouths and open ears/minds. When you enter a minority space, you need to realize that this is their soapbox, not yours. Your privilege gives you many other soapboxes that you can take advanta…

You're really into protecting your rhetorical devices, aren't you?

Do you have any real responses to my arguments?

Re: Paul Graham Isn't Keeping Women out of Tech

#174

Post by jfarmer » Mon, Dec 30, 2013, 10:02 PM UTC

baddox wrote: post #172

jfarmer wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you're admittedly ignorant, how can you tell whether the answer is ridiculous or there's something critical you're not understanding? What happens if the answer is not ridiculous but is utterly inconsistent with your current picture of the world?

> how can you tell whether the answer is ridiculous or there's something critical you're not understanding? Did you read my responses? I explain why I think each quoted section is ridiculous. Most of the quoted sections are not empirical claims that I am disputing ("my current picture of the world"), but are rather claims about opinions or normative claims which I am disputing.

Sorry, I don't think you're understanding me. Ironically, this is a demonstration of the point I was trying to make. :D

You see/read/hear something. It doesn't make sense to you. It seems ridiculous. How do you know whether it actually is ridiculous or there's something critical you're not understanding?

Assuming you believe the theory of evolution, consider how fundamentalists think about it. They will say it's "obviously ridiculous" and have a million reasons why. Nevertheless, it's not ridiculous. Rather, there's something (many things) critical they're not understanding.

It "seems" ridiculous because it contradicts their prior understanding of the world. How can you tell when something is actually ridiculous or it's your prior understanding of the world that needs to be changed?

This is a more general and personal question. Feel free to divorce it from the issue of gender and privilege if you like, it's really a question of "personal epistemology."

Re: Paul Graham Isn't Keeping Women out of Tech

#175

Post by erikpukinskis » Tue, Dec 31, 2013, 2:50 AM UTC

spindritf wrote: post #69

erikpukinskis wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The irony is that there is an immense amount of money being left on the table by this whole "startup world" ignoring women and people of color.

Is there? With so many people, including well-off, successful entrepreneurs like tptacek above complaining, somehow there's no one to step in? They could in one swoop contribute to fixing an injustice, receive acclaim and make money, yet no one does? I don't buy it.

No, it would be very difficult. But the money is there for those willing to put the effort in.