Google is defragging Android • Hacker News Board

Re: Google is defragging Android

#171

Post by ZeroGravitas » Tue, Sep 03, 2013, 1:19 PM UTC

4ad wrote: post #161

ZeroGravitas wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Firefox and Ubuntu phone both run on top of an Android layer so they're not great argument against the openess of Android.

No, absolutely not. Ubuntu on existing Android phones uses the Linux kernel with the Android patches so it can use the OEM binary drivers. It doesn't use any bits of Android. FirefoxOS is the same.

I didn't say they run on top of Dalvik, I'm saying they share some of the lower level foundations like e.g. "the Linux kernel with the Android patches so it can use the OEM binary drivers", which is important because that kind of stuff is what separates a smartphone from a brick.

Re: Google is defragging Android

#172

Post by smackfu » Tue, Sep 03, 2013, 1:38 PM UTC

Someone wrote: post #125

jaegerpicker wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What? It absolutely helps 3rd party app developers. Need a new and better video/gps/network/etc.. api? Right now you stuck depending on a new OS Version. if they start tying api's to play store updates, as they have with things like geolocation/gps functions, they worrying which OS and about fragmentation mostly goes away for 3rd party developers of apps.

I'm not sure about the extent of the 'mostly' part. You still have the huge differences in CPU speed, GPU capabilities, screen sizes and amount of memory to cater with. That 5 year old phone may have the latest Play Services, but what good is that if that leaves only 10 kilobytes of RAM for your app?

I think that's the "acceptable" end of fragmentation. Of course technology will get better, and old devices will be left behind. It doesn't matter what platform you are on.

Re: Google is defragging Android

#173

Post by Pxtl » Tue, Sep 03, 2013, 1:44 PM UTC

e12e wrote: post #73

wpietri wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem isn't Play. It's that people are being bound more tightly to the ecosystem. As a developer, one of the things that was more appealing to me about Android was that Android seemed to be a more level playing field. But this approach tilts things substantially in favor of Google. In particular, this solves fragmentation for Google, and maybe for Google trusted partners, but it doesn't seem to do so for any ot…

I don't see any reason why the play app shouldn't be Free software. So, while I might be a minority, I'd certainly like to see all of it opened up. I'd much prefer a reality where the play service and app is open, and which upstream source you trust is defined by which certificates you trust, and nothing else. That'd make it trivial to set up trusted sources for a company, for example.

Well, from a business standpoint, there are a lot of companies planning to piggyback off of Android to launch their own OS platforms. These competitors represent a real threat to the Android platform. When Google was all alone in the smartphone OS space (chief competitors being BBOS and iOS, which aren't licensed to 3rd party manufacturers) they didn't have to worry about competing for the attentions of manufacturers... companies got to choose between Android or making Symbian featurephones. So it was easy for Google to be generous with the source.

Now that Google has to worry about de-Google'd Android products, they need to keep more of their work for themselves.

Re: Google is defragging Android

#174

Post by Zigurd » Tue, Sep 03, 2013, 1:49 PM UTC

kalleboo wrote: post #128

ajross wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. "GPS" data is certainly available and part of the standard open source framework: http://developer.android.com/reference/android/location/pack... But access to e.g. Google's giant wifi-to-location database isn't part of that API. And it's a good service, and something that is hard to replicate and thus a competetive advantage. But to speak to the upthread parent: it has nothing to do with "drivers". The HAL…

> And it's a good service, and something that is hard to replicate and thus a competetive advantage. It's a service that Google will not let manufacturers replace even if they want to. Horribly anti-competetive. http://www.mobileburn.com/news.jsp?Id=14923

That's not exactly correct. Amazon, for example, is free to use whatever location services they want, since they use an Android-based system that uses no part of the Google ecosystem.

So if you want Google Play and everything else Google in your device, you have to take Google's location services, too. That may not be unreasonable.

Re: Google is defragging Android

#175

Post by bsaul » Tue, Sep 03, 2013, 1:51 PM UTC

It seems that this article doesn't really separate between user concerns (having the latest google apps) and developper concerns (access to latest APIs).

From what I understand, this means developpers will be able to rely on android "services" being updated more often and more consistently available.

However, what about things like using new UI components ? For this, you still need the latest OS version, right ? If that's the case, then maybe this would mean users caring even LESS about updating their OS, and thus an even worst situation.

i suppose Google thought about it, so there's probably something false in my statement, could anyone confirm ?

Re: Google is defragging Android

#176

Post by estel » Tue, Sep 03, 2013, 1:53 PM UTC

nomercy400 wrote: post #151

A closed source app that can update itself without notifying the user, and has full permissions? How is this any different from the 'loss of control' to American institutes, like the Windows 8.1 / TPM 2.0 warning from the German government. Isn't this exactly the same thing?

I've not tried to, but Android surfaces an option to disable Play Services.

Re: Google is defragging Android

#177

Post by rarw » Tue, Sep 03, 2013, 2:08 PM UTC

Aside from fighting over whether Android is closed or not this is an interesting solution to dealing with the inconsistencies present in the Android universe. The freedom everyone wants to love that comes with a fully open source Android platform is, in reality, a real pain when you're trying to develop apps. There is at best a plurality of different operating system versions. Phone manufactureres spontaneously stop supporting devcies, only pushing out updates to the newest of the new. OS improvements are lost on those devices left behind until the users can afford a new device or reach the point where they can upgrade.

Unlike Apple, where the iOS landscape is 100% consistent (minus physical hardware variations) Android is a mess. Before going to town on Google for "closing" the operating system, let's at least look at the problem they are trying to solve and how this attempt - I'm not saying it's correct, or good - addresses those issues.

Re: Google is defragging Android

#178

Post by jaegerpicker » Tue, Sep 03, 2013, 2:22 PM UTC

Someone wrote: post #125

jaegerpicker wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What? It absolutely helps 3rd party app developers. Need a new and better video/gps/network/etc.. api? Right now you stuck depending on a new OS Version. if they start tying api's to play store updates, as they have with things like geolocation/gps functions, they worrying which OS and about fragmentation mostly goes away for 3rd party developers of apps.

I'm not sure about the extent of the 'mostly' part. You still have the huge differences in CPU speed, GPU capabilities, screen sizes and amount of memory to cater with. That 5 year old phone may have the latest Play Services, but what good is that if that leaves only 10 kilobytes of RAM for your app?

That's a different issue. This is about Software fragmentation. Hardware fragmentation is alot harder to solve IMO.

Re: Google is defragging Android

#179

Post by jaegerpicker » Tue, Sep 03, 2013, 2:31 PM UTC

MBCook wrote: post #79

jaegerpicker wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What? It absolutely helps 3rd party app developers. Need a new and better video/gps/network/etc.. api? Right now you stuck depending on a new OS Version. if they start tying api's to play store updates, as they have with things like geolocation/gps functions, they worrying which OS and about fragmentation mostly goes away for 3rd party developers of apps.

How is Play going to update the kernel without the OEM's involvement? Some software improvements and new libraries will be available, and that's a plus for users. But this is still a far distance from REAL OS updates. I'd worry this disincentives OEMs to do real updates.

Sure certain very low level items are going to be difficult to update outside of the kernel. Let's use video as an example, it's something I'm really familiar with. At the Kernel android provides an OEM version of the stagefright lib and the actual video drivers, those would be hard to update outside of the kernel. What the play store can easily update is newer and better API's to those low level lib's. Right now those encoder/decoder API's were new in OS version 4.1 ( I think 4 something, just woke up :) ) but using the google play updates new and better API's could be rolled out at anytime.

Re: Google is defragging Android

#180

Post by 4ad » Tue, Sep 03, 2013, 2:40 PM UTC

ZeroGravitas wrote: post #171

4ad wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, absolutely not. Ubuntu on existing Android phones uses the Linux kernel with the Android patches so it can use the OEM binary drivers. It doesn't use any bits of Android. FirefoxOS is the same.

I didn't say they run on top of Dalvik, I'm saying they share some of the lower level foundations like e.g. "the Linux kernel with the Android patches so it can use the OEM binary drivers", which is important because that kind of stuff is what separates a smartphone from a brick.

No. Android layer means Dalvik + bionic. Ubuntu and FirefoxOS run on top of the Linux kernel, which happens to be supplied by Google/OEM vendors on some devices. Both can run on an unmodified Linux kernel if a device supports it, and both are trying to come up with their own devices.

Btw, the Linux kernel is the only GPL piece of code in Android. However closed Android is or will become, the kernel will still be provided because of the virulent license. Arguing Android is open because they ship the kernel that allows FirefoxOS and Ubuntu to boot on some devices is wrong because they are legally bound to ship this kernel, it's not an act of good will (but doesn't mean they wouldn't do it out of good will).