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Ripping Off Young America: The College-Loan Scandal

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Re: Ripping Off Young America: The College-Loan Scandal

#171

Whatever happened to personal responsibility? You're 18, you can smoke, drive, join the army and take out gigantic loans you can't repay. It's a fine line between making it easy for everyone to go to college and making it easy for a mathematically disinclined person to take out a huge loan for a dumb reason. It would be great for everyone to have the chance to go to some college. For some reason, people seem to immed…

Unlike the things you listed above, college isn't perceived as a choice. It's perceived as an obligation. Because of this, a myopia has set in among most students: "I need to go to the best possible college or kill myself trying." The decision is no longer theirs, it is the product of tremendous stigmatization, social pressure, and the nonstop inundation of students essentially from birth with platitudes about the ne…

I agree that college isn't perceived as a choice, but I do question why it's the fault of anyone but the student if they apply only to $50k/yr schools, ignoring whatever their state schools are. Is it the schools' fault for accepting students who can't afford it?

Is it the loan companies' fault for trying to provide loans for students who likely can't pay them back? If so, should loan companies be able to discriminate based on which major a student chooses? Or on their GPA? Or likelihood of landing a job that pays $X/yr?

Is it the government's fault for not stepping in to make sure that a student can't get a loan that they can never hope to repay?

Ultimately I think it falls on a student for making a bad choice. I agree that it sucks that a student can't discharge the loan (as someone mentioned above). I'm not really sure how to fix that: if it's dischargable, loans are going to be a lot harder to get, then the government needs to provide the loan. Then we get a mixture of the two scenarios I mentioned above.

But I guess as a person I am a big believer in personal responsibility. You make your choices, just like I've made mine.

Re: Ripping Off Young America: The College-Loan Scandal

#172

Whatever happened to personal responsibility? You're 18, you can smoke, drive, join the army and take out gigantic loans you can't repay. It's a fine line between making it easy for everyone to go to college and making it easy for a mathematically disinclined person to take out a huge loan for a dumb reason. It would be great for everyone to have the chance to go to some college. For some reason, people seem to immed…

On one hand I agree with your sentiments but expecting an 18 year old to "take responsibility" and choose the right thing for themselves at that age is reasonable at first sight but doesn't take into account the reality of being a young adult. How many young adults have the confidence, long term thinking and proper guidance to decide that they should go to a cheaper school? At that age the percentage of people having…

If they can't take responsibility in this manner then they are not young adults; they are still children. Rather than infantilizing high school grads, there needs to be social pressure for them to rise to the challenge.

Re: Ripping Off Young America: The College-Loan Scandal

#174

Whatever happened to personal responsibility? You're 18, you can smoke, drive, join the army and take out gigantic loans you can't repay. It's a fine line between making it easy for everyone to go to college and making it easy for a mathematically disinclined person to take out a huge loan for a dumb reason. It would be great for everyone to have the chance to go to some college. For some reason, people seem to immed…

Agree regarding personal responsibility. But it goes both ways: lenders should be held responsible when they make loans to borrowers who do not have a reasonable ability to repay a debt.

For all other classes of debt, the mechanism that enforces this responsibility is bankruptcy (or forfeiture of the property, in the case of a home or auto loan), but bankruptcy is not an option for student loan debt.

Eliminate the exemption from bankruptcy that student debt currently enjoys and you eliminate the student debt problem.

Re: Ripping Off Young America: The College-Loan Scandal

#175

The student loan issue is kinda like the Health Insurance issue in America (strictly an opinion). Prices are driven up because colleges can charge whatever they wish and the students pay for it in the form of loans mostly backed by the Government (STAFFORD etc.). Colleges have no incentive to reduce tuition cost because the money flows either way (student or the govt. ). Remove the option of getting subsidized/backed…

I wish it were that simple. I think if you remove the government backed loans, the private loan market will be happy to have no competition.

Re: Ripping Off Young America: The College-Loan Scandal

#176

Its interesting to me that they didnt mention the fact that the Gov't is essentially upgrading an asset. It seems to me that people w/ degrees on average earn more. If they on average earn more, their taxes ought to be higher as well. So the student is borrowing money at interest, to upgrade themselves and in turn will also pay the government more money in the long run. Seems like a great deal for the Gov't.

First, about half of people that go to college don't graduate in 6 years. That means the asset isn't upgraded but the costs and loans still live on. http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2013/02/27/college_co...

Second, the very idea that college "upgrades" the asset is specious at best. http://www.amazon.com/Academically-Adrift-Limited-Learning-C...

Third, people with degrees do earn more, but remember that they actually take four years or more off. That's 4 years of taxes and raises that the government doesn't get. Given wages in a lot of non-degree jobs that don't require degrees (public employee unions and public safety work come to mind), this is not an insignificant amount.

Re: Ripping Off Young America: The College-Loan Scandal

#177
People call this is a bubble. But it lacks one characteristic of a bubble: it can't burst in the usual way.

Usually, people bankrupt out or sell assets, creating a cascading effect (lots of bankruptcies or lots of selling). That ends a bubble. But student loan borrowers can't do that - they can't get out of the game via bankruptcy (student loan debts will even be extracted from your social security payments, should that be required), and they can't sell the (possibly overpriced) asset they bought, a university education. There's no exit possible.

So for current borrowers, they're totally trapped, forever. Leaving the country is their only escape, which itself is difficult. Many of them will spend their entire lives, from age 18 until they die of old age, on the edge of poverty with an unpayable loan balance looming over their heads. The bubble can't pop! The only way there can be a pop is if they all commit suicide at once.

What it can do is slowly deflate. What this looks like: an entire generation decides, possibly through seeing the suffering endured by their parents, that college is a bad deal. "Son, don't make the mistake I made." They stop going. No borrowing, no college attendance.

My prediction: emigration and noticeably lower college attendance in the future.

Re: Ripping Off Young America: The College-Loan Scandal

#178
post #50

What really breaks this is that the current education bubble is essentially unpoppable. Until lenders start losing more by allowing people to default on student loans, they have no incentive to turn down anyone. And with all of that money so readily available, colleges can keep increasing tuition, since the loans will always provide enough students to fill their classes. The problem with fixing this, however, is that…

I agree with this comment so much! The negative stigma of "only" doing high school is so harmful. Take welders for instance. It's an honest job, provides a useful and necessary service. If somebody finds welding interesting enough to occupy them and satisfy their career ambitions, it's a smart decision not to go to college. They will contribute to society just as well for their choice.

I recently attended a high school graduation - in America - where one of the top 5 students planned to become a certified underwater welder. Granted, this was not the most academically competitive high school in the area, but still a pretty decent one. You could hear the audience gasp. But then we all applauded. Afterward I told her I admired her guts, not only for her unusual vocational choice, but also for ultimately deciding in college. She applied to several, was accepted and received partial scholarships to all, but decided that she wasn't "crazy" for being #5 in her class and deciding to forego college.

Re: Ripping Off Young America: The College-Loan Scandal

#179

Whatever happened to personal responsibility? You're 18, you can smoke, drive, join the army and take out gigantic loans you can't repay. It's a fine line between making it easy for everyone to go to college and making it easy for a mathematically disinclined person to take out a huge loan for a dumb reason. It would be great for everyone to have the chance to go to some college. For some reason, people seem to immed…

>Whose fault is that? They didn't read what they're signing for? Isn't that their own damn fault? [...] No one forced them to go to college

Yes, but it was an offer they couldn't refuse. One of my favorite results from game theory is that sometimes more options lead to everyone being worse off. Let me explain.

Suppose in scenario A only the very wealthy or the very smart and dedicated (scholarships) have the option to go to college. Most of the workforce will not have a bachelor's. The employers will require such a degree only for those jobs where it's strictly needed, and make do with training programs etc.

In scenario B, everyone has the option to go to college on expensive loans. Some people take this option. It turns out before long that employers prefer to hire these people, even in fields completely different from their major, for reasons such as: 1) finishing college becomes a signal of reliability and competence instead of wealth 2) people who need to pay off college debt will quit less readily. Before long, the college graduates' obvious advantage in the labor market pushes everyone else to try and attend college, which further drives up costs and loans. This only accentuates factors 1) and 2) above, e.g. with strong pressure to attend college and possibility to do so, it means you're either lazy or not that bright if you don't.

And so we reach a situation in which only 27% of working college graduates have a job related their major [1], 35% work in a job that requires any college degree (which clearly indicates the degree is only used as a signal), and 38% are screwed up by paying their loans from jobs that only need high school or less.

[1] http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2013/05/20/o...

Re: Ripping Off Young America: The College-Loan Scandal

#180

People call this is a bubble. But it lacks one characteristic of a bubble: it can't burst in the usual way. Usually, people bankrupt out or sell assets, creating a cascading effect (lots of bankruptcies or lots of selling). That ends a bubble. But student loan borrowers can't do that - they can't get out of the game via bankruptcy (student loan debts will even be extracted from your social security payments, should t…

There's another alternative. You can change laws so that student loans will be dischargeable via bankruptcy. It's not popular yet, but more stories like this and that's a much more likely path. Libertarians on the right and Socialists on the left both agree on this one.
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