I'm in a similar situation, I just bit the bullet and took the loans.
I cannot afford to go back to engineering school
171–180 of 278 posts
Re: I cannot afford to go back to engineering school
#172Point 1: Likely what you want to learn you can learn well without going back to school. Indeed, at a high end research university, it is in effect or explicitly assumed that you can teach yourself. If you are in software, then likely you are heavily self-taught. Well, being self-taught in nearly all parts of academic engineering is easier than in practical software if only because in nearly all of academic engineerin…
You spent a significant chunk of your post suggesting self study. For something like math, this is really really really unrealistic. Most pure math textbooks don't have simple problems you can just check in the back. They're multistep proofs that can be done in a number of different ways. Oh, and you encounter plenty of material where you can easily trick yourself into thinking that you really understand it when you actually don't. Additionally, there is a standard of rigor that you don't experience at bad schools (or with no schooling). You could be writing complete nonsense solutions and not even know it.
Also: how are you going to self-study when you don't live at home? Studying is a full time job.
Re: I cannot afford to go back to engineering school
#173The US university loan system is fucked. We have a government-run loan scheme called HECS. You defer your university fees throughout the duration of your studies, apparently no matter how long they last. The programme is not means tested at all, so it is available for every single domestic student studying uni here, no matter what. That loan is then paid back only once you start earning more than a threshold amount o…
HECS is nice, I knew a number of Aussie engineers at Microsoft who got a good education and as you said, fled the country. Low interest loans are not the worst idea if people actually stop to ask themselves if their major will provide the enough income to pay them back. They avoid the flee the jurisdiction problem an the waste money on a useless major problem. Its reasonably rational to pay the money to go to Stanfor…
I'm an Australian ex-patriot who went straight to Microsoft after study and although myself and other friends who did the same aren't paying back their HECS now we all agree in the mid-to-late future when we return to Australia we will pay our HECS in full and likely later than others so with a little more interest too.
Honestly I think the brain drain is the biggest downside to Australians moving overseas after higher education, it's hard for me to move back after seeing the opportunities here.
Re: I cannot afford to go back to engineering school
#174Point 1: Likely what you want to learn you can learn well without going back to school. Indeed, at a high end research university, it is in effect or explicitly assumed that you can teach yourself. If you are in software, then likely you are heavily self-taught. Well, being self-taught in nearly all parts of academic engineering is easier than in practical software if only because in nearly all of academic engineerin…
About point 2 and point 3: the quality of the undergraduate education is considered in applicants to top schools. Like I said before, there is definitely a standard of rigor that you don't experience at every school. As soon as you decide to optimize for financial cost (picking the cheapest school, doing community college), you've already placed on a burden on yourself.
Re: I cannot afford to go back to engineering school
#175Ingrid,
If you are reading this then please take another shot at the FAFSA. You are quite right that the computer systems and standard rules screwed you over.
That is why Financial Aid Advisers (the ones at your school) can make judgement calls on a case by case basis to override the computer system.
Specifically, there are two qualities of your described situation which qualify you for such an override. 1. You mentioned that you are couch surfing with friends. This means you are homeless 2. You made a good amount on previous employment and your story seems to suggest that said employment is no longer active. This means you have recently lost your job. According to FAFSA guides for financial aid advisers, professional judgement may be used to adjust parameters which are used to calculate your expected family contribution.
Your situation appears to apply to several typical cases in which professional judgement is recommended.
1. "A student is considered homeless if he or she lacks fixed, regular, and adequate housing. This includes students who are living in shelters, motels, cars, or parks, or who are temporarily living with other people because they have nowhere else to go." -https://fafsa.ed.gov/fotw1314/help/fahelp29a.htm
2. "Special circumstances may include tuition expenses at an elementary or secondary school, medical, dental, or nursing home expenses not covered by insurance, unusually high child care or dependent care costs, recent unemployment of a family member or an independent student, a student or family member who is a dislocated worker (as defined in section 101 of the Workforce Investment Act of 1998), the number of parents enrolled at least half time in a degree, certificate, or other program leading to a recognized educational credential at an institution with a program participation agreement under section 487, a change in housing status that results in an individual being homeless (as defined in section 103 of the McKinney-Vento Homeless Assistance Act), or other changes in a family’s income, a family’s assets or a student’s status. Special circumstances shall be conditions that differentiate an individual student from a class of students rather than conditions that exist across a class of students. Adequate documentation for such adjustments shall substantiate such special circumstances of individual students." -http://ifap.ed.gov/fsahandbook/attachments/1314AVGCh5.pdf -http://www2.ed.gov/policy/highered/leg/hea98/sec478.html
All of this amounts to the your case calling for professional judgement by your financial aid advisers. I do not know what made them turn you away before but it may be as simple as not knowing. I had a similar situation in school myself, it turned out that the first adviser I worked with was somewhat new to their job and just did not know they could make a judgement call.
Never give up. If it seems like the system is broken, make it work for you. I hope this information helps.
For anyone else who happens to know Ingrid Avendano or how to get her a message, please pass this info along.
Re: I cannot afford to go back to engineering school
#176The US university loan system is fucked. We have a government-run loan scheme called HECS. You defer your university fees throughout the duration of your studies, apparently no matter how long they last. The programme is not means tested at all, so it is available for every single domestic student studying uni here, no matter what. That loan is then paid back only once you start earning more than a threshold amount o…
> The major criticism of the system is that students can just incur this debt then flee the country.
That would be the big roadblock to implementing something like that in the US.
In the US, when evaluating whether or not to do (or continue) some program that provides aid or assistance, there are a lot of people who focus primarily on whether or not it is possible to cheat the system. It doesn't matter to them if 99 out of 100 people getting the aid are following the rules and having their lives greatly improved (and indirectly improving things for the country as a whole). It is that 1 out of 100 who gets aid who did not qualify that is all they see.
> If they earn no taxable income here, they never have to pay it back no matter how much they earn overseas. I can't really think of an easy way to resolve this because it's impossible to garnish income from another country.
This should be solvable. Change the law so that payment is owed on foreign income, even if that income is not taxable in Australia, and make it so that the Australian government can bring a civil suit for a monetary judgement against those who do not pay.
I believe (but someone should check me on this) that at least in the US, Australia could enforce that judgement. The US would recognize the Australian court's jurisdiction (assuming the defendant is still an Australian citizen), and would recognize Australia's right to tax foreign income. That, combined with whatever treaties I am almost certain the US and Australia have, should be enough for the US to consider the judgement enforceable, and to enforce it for Australia.
My recollection is that due to various treaties between most pairs of first world countries, escaping debt in one by going to another is fairly difficult, unless the debt in the first involved something that is morally frowned upon in the second. E.g., if you owed a pimp for prostitution services in some country where prostitution is legal, countries where prostitution is not legal might not recognize this even if they otherwise recognize debts from the first country.
Re: I cannot afford to go back to engineering school
#177Point 1: Likely what you want to learn you can learn well without going back to school. Indeed, at a high end research university, it is in effect or explicitly assumed that you can teach yourself. If you are in software, then likely you are heavily self-taught. Well, being self-taught in nearly all parts of academic engineering is easier than in practical software if only because in nearly all of academic engineerin…
> And from the famous Ivy League schools, it's generally easier to get accepted for a Ph.D. than for a Bachelors.
Since in many cases PhD is basically free, it is by far more competitive than Bachelors.
Re: I cannot afford to go back to engineering school
#178Earlier quoted context omitted.
Is there still a screw case for "kids from wealthier families" when the families refuse to help? At least during the '80s, I was told I was ineligible for any financial aid.
Yep. If your parents are wealthy and don't want to help you, you are most definitely not going to a high-end school, not even a state flagship. At that point community college is the only reasonable option (because it's actually possible to earn enough without the degree to cover the cost). You couldn't really have it any other way without drastically altering the structure of higher education: the alternative is tha…
The financial aid system shouldn't be pre hoc means tested, it should be post hoc means tested. 18 years old is old enough to vote, marry, and enlist in the military. The government ought not to be looking at parents to foot the bills for legal adults.
Something like the Harvard Law School debt repayment program: http://www.law.harvard.edu/current/sfs/lipp/participant-cont...
If a given college is worried that such a plan will bankrupt it, perhaps it should reconsider the value of the education it is providing.
Re: I cannot afford to go back to engineering school
#179Point 1: Likely what you want to learn you can learn well without going back to school. Indeed, at a high end research university, it is in effect or explicitly assumed that you can teach yourself. If you are in software, then likely you are heavily self-taught. Well, being self-taught in nearly all parts of academic engineering is easier than in practical software if only because in nearly all of academic engineerin…
graycat, would you mind putting an email in your "about" section of your profile so I can contact you? I have some questions about trouble I'm running into in regards to some of the examples you presented.
Re: I cannot afford to go back to engineering school
#180I'm in the exact same situation. Except in my case, in Canada, and (only) after 1 year of full-time courses.
I also did a paid internship, for $18 an hour at a major software company in Vancouver, B.C. Now the Canadian government has decided that I have more than enough (assuming a cost of living of 0 for a 20 year old that has to support an elderly mother).
So basically, I have an income of 0 (aside from my freelance work), costs running at ~$1600 CAN per month for basic shelter + food for 2 people, AND the Canadian government is constantly on my back for student loan repayment. I did not choose to dropout of college, I was (essentially) forced to by the government.
Best part is, now any employer I talk to asks about the 1 year I spent in college. I'm sure they assume that as a 20 year old, I am either lazy, stupid, or irresponsible. But that couldn't be further from the truth. I've worked 18~22 hour days everyday of my life since I was 16, and I'm tired. Not tired of a (somewhat) difficult life, but tired of the assumptions people make. People in the government, people who have power of employment, people around me who judge a book by its cover.