Sweden Runs Out of Garbage With Waste-to-Energy • Hacker News Board

Re: Sweden Runs Out of Garbage With Waste-to-Energy

#171

Post by kamakazizuru » Fri, Aug 02, 2013, 2:04 PM UTC

briandear wrote: post #108

kamakazizuru wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

its counterintuitive to me that you think something intelligent and good for society like sorting the trash that you generate is even remotely comparable to fighting a war that shouldn't have happened to start with - and spraying agent orange at a bunch of innocents.

I won't defend the Vietnam War, however generalizing the bunch innocents is a bit daft. The US gets criticized for torture yet the US version of torture compared in no way to the torture perpetuated by that 'bunch of innocents.' Let's not even get into that 'peaceful' Communist group just across te border known as the Khmer Rouge. It's stylish to be a Che Guevara-shirt wearing anti-American granola eating hippy, yet…

if im an anti-american granola eating hippy (yum granola!) - then you´re nothing more than a stars and stripes boxers wearing nut - who´s gone off on a tangent about politics - the idea was just to point out that theres a very big difference between something thats generally a positive thing - and something that obviously was in a very gray zone. Don´t get your panties up in a bunch and get all ad hominem - the point wasn´t to bash the US - the point was that the poster before me seemed to make a very skewed comparison that just didnt make sense.

also for wanting to keep politics off HN - you failed pretty badly at that mate!

Re: Sweden Runs Out of Garbage With Waste-to-Energy

#172

Post by kamakazizuru » Fri, Aug 02, 2013, 2:05 PM UTC

briandear wrote: post #111

willvarfar wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(Living in Sweden) Actually, the Swedes really do believe in this. Everyone I know conscientiously sorts their trash. A Swede will happy carry their own bags up to their rooms in hotels, too. Most hotels don't have porters. They don't have the whole tipping thing either generally. You go through life doing things for yourself, not paying others to do things for you. Maybe its the US psyche and is some kind of superio…

Only the more expensive hotels in the United States have porters. The Courtyard Marriott in Gettysburg, PA doesn't send a uniformed porter to get your bags. As far as porters in hotels in Sweden, most of the luxury hotels do (at least in Stockholm.) Trying to turn this into an "American superiority complex" thing is completely silly. Visit any major city in the world and nearly any full-service hotel in the world and…

man you just love yourself some tangents dont you?

Re: Sweden Runs Out of Garbage With Waste-to-Energy

#173

Post by bkanber » Fri, Aug 02, 2013, 2:07 PM UTC

3pt14159 wrote: post #53

gvr wrote: post #46

My dad's condo [edit: condo complex] in Sweden has 10+ different trash cans. You divide your trash into individuals cans for batteries, bulbs, cardboard, paper, compostables, and so forth. I don't know but I assume that part of the reason that Swedes are able to deal effectively with the trash is that they sort it properly at the source, so that they more easily can process it. When I read stuff like this it honestly…

It's inefficient to do 10+ cans per person. It is more efficient to sort it at the garbage transfer station the way Canadians do. Most places have 3 cans. General, glass/plastic/cardboard, and biodegradable. Also, SF is considered "progressive" for many of its completely unsustainable policies, like housing controls, which ultimately lead to further economic inefficiency. A truly progressive society is more like Toro…

> It's inefficient to do 10+ cans per person.

I don't understand how you can make this claim when it has so obviously worked to great success for Sweden. The evidence shows that they are the best at managing their trash; why shouldn't we learn from them?

Re: Sweden Runs Out of Garbage With Waste-to-Energy

#174

Post by ashmud » Fri, Aug 02, 2013, 3:53 PM UTC

chc wrote: post #40

read_again wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thank you! I really think the fact that Sweden is 30 time smaller than the US is a significant aspect of the problem, which ought to be highlighted a bit more when doing a comparison between these two countries on their energy models. How hard would it be for the US to implement such solution (assuming the cost would not be as prohibitive as it is compared with nuclear energy), first in a large city like NY (or LA) a…

Japan has about a third of our population and they do garbage sorting pervasively. I believe it's less onerous than the Swedish scheme, though.

About ten years ago, in Tokyo, at least the business districts, it was somewhat difficult to find public trash receptacles rather than recycling receptacles. The recycling setups I saw were typically three-ish receptacle configurations.

Re: Sweden Runs Out of Garbage With Waste-to-Energy

#175

Post by jpadkins » Fri, Aug 02, 2013, 4:26 PM UTC

purplelobster wrote: post #115

jpadkins wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

so when is sweden going to accept open immigration from all of the poorer neighbors? I'll be impressed if it can keep social cohesion while allowing immigrants to make a better life for themselves. It's easy for an elite society to stay closed and elite. SF is open to some of the poorest people on earth.

Did you just call the American poor "some of the poorest people on earth?" Or were you talking about immigrants? One town in Sweden (Södertälje) has received more Iraqi refugees alone than all of the US has, the country that actually started the war. Sweden's immigrants are actually some of the poorest people on earth, mainly refugees of war and people who would be prosecuted/killed if they returned to their home cou…

I was referring to the large amount of asian, mexican and central american people who live in SF. SF is known as an amnesty city (along with NYC, LA and Chicago).

What is the racial/ethnic diversity of Sweden? Showing stats on high immigration where the top of list is finnland, germany, denmark, etc. It's great sweden takes refugee's, but that is easy if they are a tiny fraction of the population. What percentage of the population is a different race or ethnicity? Here is san fransisco http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/06/06075.html

Re: Sweden Runs Out of Garbage With Waste-to-Energy

#176

Post by EGreg » Fri, Aug 02, 2013, 4:27 PM UTC

anateus wrote: post #89

EGreg wrote: post #11

Are there any negative externalities turning garbage into energy? What are the byproducts? Pollution released into the air? Spread to everyone else? Because this is wonderful!

Massive amounts of CO2 primarily. Also dioxins, but there are ways to combat that they may be be employed.

So where does this CO2 go? Do we need more trees to offset it, or what

Re: Sweden Runs Out of Garbage With Waste-to-Energy

#177

Post by jpadkins » Fri, Aug 02, 2013, 4:31 PM UTC

smcl wrote: post #151

purplelobster wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you just call the American poor "some of the poorest people on earth?" Or were you talking about immigrants? One town in Sweden (Södertälje) has received more Iraqi refugees alone than all of the US has, the country that actually started the war. Sweden's immigrants are actually some of the poorest people on earth, mainly refugees of war and people who would be prosecuted/killed if they returned to their home cou…

This is something people frequently ignore, and point to the areas of the US being culturally diverse as an excuse for poor school results or high crime. This annoys me slightly as it carries an implication that there are some ethnic backgrounds which are inherently bad\stupid\poor\whatever.

My implication is different (altho I agree some people use it as a racist argument). My implication is that social cohesion policies are not easy when you have a ethically diverse population with different cultures and values. It's perfectly natural for people to form into groups and not trust 'others' (which isn't racist). This natural tendency makes it hard for social policies to be successful. When 95% of your population is white, with similar cultural values, its easy to have a policy where you spread the wealth to fellow group members you identify with. It's a lot harder to have policies when your population is split into 3 different camps.

Re: Sweden Runs Out of Garbage With Waste-to-Energy

#178

Post by jpadkins » Fri, Aug 02, 2013, 4:35 PM UTC

gaadd33 wrote: post #103

jpadkins wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

so when is sweden going to accept open immigration from all of the poorer neighbors? I'll be impressed if it can keep social cohesion while allowing immigrants to make a better life for themselves. It's easy for an elite society to stay closed and elite. SF is open to some of the poorest people on earth.

"SF is open to some of the poorest people on earth." no more so than the rest of the United States is insofar as immigration goes. I don't believe there are many (any?) people living in SF that qualify as the poorest people on earth though.

SF is an amnesty city, with a lot of immigrants from central america. Many other US cities have an active deportation policy, SF does not. SF does not push out the homeless either.

My point was if Stockholm had the same weather and immigration policies as San Fransisco, it would be facing some of the same challenges with poverty and homelessness.

Re: Sweden Runs Out of Garbage With Waste-to-Energy

#179

Post by dalke » Fri, Aug 02, 2013, 5:36 PM UTC

pedalpete wrote: post #91

workhere-io wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sweden has cut services and taxes more than any other western country in the past decade. They still have some of the highest taxes in the world and an extensive welfare state.

Though statistically you are correct, I'd like to see a comparison of not only current tax rates, but tax rates compared to debt/deficits. The US may be collecting less taxes, but if they're just putting the remainder on credit, then they aren't really any further ahead (and possibly behind). I did a quick search, but didn't come up with anything.

Any such comparison is tricky. Swedish taxes also pay for child care, medical care, elderly care, and even burial, which are seen more as a purely personal/employer cost in the US.

Re: Sweden Runs Out of Garbage With Waste-to-Energy

#180

Post by dalke » Fri, Aug 02, 2013, 5:40 PM UTC

qw wrote: post #66

3pt14159 wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's inefficient to do 10+ cans per person. It is more efficient to sort it at the garbage transfer station the way Canadians do. Most places have 3 cans. General, glass/plastic/cardboard, and biodegradable. Also, SF is considered "progressive" for many of its completely unsustainable policies, like housing controls, which ultimately lead to further economic inefficiency. A truly progressive society is more like Toro…

My city (Oslo) has reduced some of the cans by having an optical sorting robot at the garbage processing facility. You can use one can for general, biodegradable and plastic by using different colored bags.

My city (Trollhättan, Sweden) had that policy until a few months ago. But earlier this year we got a notice saying that the city's per capita waste bills were some of the highest in Sweden, so they were switching to a bin-based separation system instead.