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German Girl Turned Away at Border Due to Private Facebook Messages

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Re: German Girl Turned Away at Border Due to Private Facebook Messages

#171

Post by Dylan16807 »

nostromo wrote: post #129
belorn wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So because you think its unlikely that US immigration officials has access to private communications on FB, that speculation is enough to dismiss the whole article about how two young girls, traveling to the US with hopes and dreams to study the language and experience the world, and then at the border was interrogated and immediately sent back. Is it just me who feels that is a bit heartless?

Heartless, yes, but not outrageous. If a young Mexican woman showed up at the border with papers describing how she intends to work as an illegal nanny, would we react the same way?

Is she getting paid an actual wage, or is she getting a room and a trivial amount of spending money?

The first is a job, the second shouldn't be considered one.

Re: German Girl Turned Away at Border Due to Private Facebook Messages

#172

Post by [deleted] »

untog wrote: post #38
nostromo wrote: post #25

It's unclear to me who provided the print-out of Jana's private messages. Obviously it seems much more likely that Jana provided the messages, not Homeland Security. I hired a Canadian once under a TN NAFTA "visa" and he had to bring some correspondence from me to the border. We had to be very careful to word things correctly and not to use specific words that could prevent him from coming to the US. It seems that th…

A friend of a friend (I know, I know) was stopped on the border between Canada and the US, and had her possessions searched. Inside they found her diary, which detailed her life and job in New York- which she shouldn't have had, because she was repeatedly entering the country on a tourist visa. She was rejected at the border. This may well be the same- even if the girl did not intend to show those messages to the bor…

[deleted]

Re: German Girl Turned Away at Border Due to Private Facebook Messages

#173

Post by rl3 »

Amadou wrote: post #163
rl3 wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The government classification isn't about protecting the secrets of private citizens, only government secrets. Using that logic, Facebook private messages supplied courtesy of the NSA would be highly classified, considering their collection mechanism would be PRISM or similar closely-held programs. > I have some experience in this field - handling fingerprints of non-criminals which were classified at the bare mini…

That only flies if there is no other possible way for another agency to have acquired the information. An administrative subpoena would be one way to do it -- I expect there is a term for that sort of thing, although the obvious "warrant laundering" does not seem to pull up any meaningful hits in google. BTW, unless something has changed since I was last in west virginia, fingerprint info is not widely available in t…

It shouldn't fly. That's why in my original post NSA was listed dead last as a probable data source, far below normal federal law enforcement means (such as administrative subpoenas). Even those were far less likely than simpler explanations.

As far as fingerprints, I agree the interface available to IAFIS database end-users may be restrictive. However, due to the highly aggregated nature of the data, and the fact it's maintained for law enforcement by law enforcement (namely the FBI), people expect it to be available to a myriad of government agencies (which it is).

With Facebook private messages, you expect only Facebook employees (or partners) to have access, or in special cases government via warrant or subpoena. Major tech companies took a fairly large PR hit following the news of NSA having wholesale access to their systems, precisely because of these expectations.

If the headline was instead "FBI grants NSA full unrestricted IAFIS access." nobody would bat an eye, because it's expected. The FBI is heavily involved in national security affairs themselves.

My point was, the sensitivity of the collection method is a major factor in determining the classification level of the data. The PRISM leak is a prime example of this.

Re: German Girl Turned Away at Border Due to Private Facebook Messages

#174

Post by Bramble »

ChuckMcM wrote: post #90

Just a note of caution, a friend of mine wanted to send their daughter over to visit the US during the summer before she headed off to college. We were of course happy to let her stay at our place which is a good west coast starting point for things California. Somewhere in correspondence where she was trying to ask nicely if she could stay at our place she said "I could watch the kids or something" and later in that…

So ridiculous! Why are they cracking down on this? Are young French and German girls really posing such a risk to US employment rates? I have offered the same thing while asking if I could stay with relatives in other US cities (I'm American). Next, are they going to go around accusing 16 year old American girls of tax evasion since their bank accounts "fit the profile" for someone who's done babysitting?

Sorry, but the living standards are high enough and tuition costs low enough in France and Germany that I'm not really sure why any French/German college-aged kids would be sneaking into this country for real jobs.

Re: German Girl Turned Away at Border Due to Private Facebook Messages

#177

Post by Amadou »

chc wrote: post #170
Amadou wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That only flies if there is no other possible way for another agency to have acquired the information. An administrative subpoena would be one way to do it -- I expect there is a term for that sort of thing, although the obvious "warrant laundering" does not seem to pull up any meaningful hits in google. BTW, unless something has changed since I was last in west virginia, fingerprint info is not widely available in t…

Do you really believe they're getting administrative subpoenas to Facebook for every 18-year-old tourist who might do some side work?

No.

What I believe is that if the NSA are already monitoring someone for whatever reason and see evidence of law-breaking that they would call up an appropriately cleared contact in the relevant agency and say, hey you should look into this person. The agency is free to run with it from there, using whatever tools with minimal oversight are available to them and no need to even mention the NSA after that point.

In fact, I believe that the number of actual terrorists is so small that such (ab)uses of the system are inevitable. In the same way that all the federal money for SWAT training of police departments has resulted in SWAT teams being deployed for all manner of low-risk situations, there just ain't enough real work for them to do so the mission creeps.

Re: German Girl Turned Away at Border Due to Private Facebook Messages

#179

Post by eru »

smartician wrote: post #78
marcosdumay wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I use one of those tools at work. It's called Google :)

Right... It's probably more sophisticated like that. Similar to what many HR departments use to screen future employees.

Why would they? That's incredibly risky from a legal point of view.

Re: German Girl Turned Away at Border Due to Private Facebook Messages

#180

Post by benaiah »

rieter wrote: post #153
benaiah wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"reading" doesn't necessarily have to be done by a human. As PRISM has shown, the government has capabilities we weren't aware (or at least sure) of. Would it be that ridiculous that they would have algorithmic scrapers running through all the FB data they have available? They say they aren't, but they've already proven we can't trust them farther than we can throw them. Even if they aren't, she's a foreign national,…

Even if there is a bigger reason for wanting her out, there is no reason for them to expose PRISM that way. Immigration officers already have rights to deny anyone without explanation. I just don't find anything about that article logical.

Good point, and one I missed. Thanks for helping clear things up.
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