Secure Boot isn't the only problem facing Linux on Windows 8 hardware • Hacker News Board

Re: Secure Boot isn't the only problem facing Linux on Windows 8 hardware

#171

Post by bookwormAT » Thu, May 30, 2013, 2:57 PM UTC

Ayabashi wrote: post #101

Filligree wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It does, if the stars align. The default setup of these computers (no full-disk encryption, easy to disable secure boot) typically means that it offers no such security. Look at Chromebook for an example of apparently doing it right.

The Chromebook is doing it right? Really? It wipes your hard disk if you enable developer mode(which is a painful process in itself). And then at every single boot you either have to wait thirty seconds to go past a very scary warning or press Ctrl-D. Every single time you boot. If you switch back to ChromeOS, the hard disk is wiped again. I would love to see HN commenters' reactions if on disabling Secure Boot, the…

"I would love to see HN commenters' reactions if on disabling Secure Boot, the Windows 8 partition is wiped along with any documents and files you saved locally"

The equivalent to a Windows 8 partition on ChromeOS is cloud storage like Google Drive, Dropbox or Skydrive. This cloud storage is not being wiped when you switch to or from developer mode.

The local storage is just a temporary storage for downloads and caching.

Oh, and entering developer mode on my Pixel was as easy as holding 3 keys down at the same time.

Re: Secure Boot isn't the only problem facing Linux on Windows 8 hardware

#172

Post by ElliotH » Thu, May 30, 2013, 5:08 PM UTC

astrodust wrote: post #165

ElliotH wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many of us do dislike that Apple lock their hardware down. So I vote with my wallet and buy less locked down devices. The concern is that it will become increasingly difficult to find a computer that does not include this behaviour.

Apple's notebooks and desktops are the opposite of locked down. You want to install another OS on it? They even provide the Boot Camp tool to make it easy for you. Want to scrub the system and start from scratch? Use rEFIt ( http://refit.sourceforge.net ) and replace the loader.

Very fair point. A Mac will probably be my next laptop at this point. I was more talking about iPhone/iPad style locked down devices though :)

Re: Secure Boot isn't the only problem facing Linux on Windows 8 hardware

#173

Post by astrodust » Thu, May 30, 2013, 7:37 PM UTC

ElliotH wrote: post #172

astrodust wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple's notebooks and desktops are the opposite of locked down. You want to install another OS on it? They even provide the Boot Camp tool to make it easy for you. Want to scrub the system and start from scratch? Use rEFIt ( http://refit.sourceforge.net ) and replace the loader.

Very fair point. A Mac will probably be my next laptop at this point. I was more talking about iPhone/iPad style locked down devices though :)

The probable reason the iOS devices are locked down is because that's where Apple's money is now.

If Apple encouraged jail-breaking that would dramatically alter the nature of their product line-up. If the jail-broken phones developed a reputation for crashing, for apps not working properly, or for being a vehicle for rampant piracy, that would taint their brand.

It's a tough position they're put in. As an enthusiast I'd really like to see the iOS hardware sold without locks, specifically for hacking, but Apple isn't interested in that market.

The good news is that whatever Apple pushes hard, be it iPads or iPhones or iPods, puts enormous pressure on the supply channel to deliver parts at scale. Where touch-screen panels used to be stupidly expensive, you can buy them for under $50 from many vendors.

Like an ice-breaker, Apple's enormous volume causes the price of components to plunge across the board. Everything they touch becomes commoditized in time. This is good for consumers, they get better products from third parties, and amazing for hardware hackers that want to build or customize their own gear. Want a quad-core ARM CPU? It's a couple of bucks. Think about that.

You can get an OEM tablet from some random vendor in China that's as good as an iPad 2 hardware-wise, and you can get them cheap. For a little extra, you can get them customized. This is not a bad thing.

Apple will keep their hardware locked down, it's their call, but it opens up enormous opportunities in the open-hardware arena.

Re: Secure Boot isn't the only problem facing Linux on Windows 8 hardware

#174

Post by Osiris » Thu, May 30, 2013, 7:47 PM UTC

cjg wrote: post #72

Osiris wrote: post #58

How can Microsoft prove that you agreed to the EULA? AFAIK, they don't upload your acceptance to a server (accepting works without a network connection). So once you wipe the system and install another OS, you've also eliminated any evidence that you accepted the EULA, so how could Microsoft start a legal action against without evidence that you accepted the EULA?

If you managed to install another OS then you managed to get to the BIOS therefore you must have accepted the EULA...

I don't see why that's true. You could have removed the SSD and reformatted it outside the machine.

Re: Secure Boot isn't the only problem facing Linux on Windows 8 hardware

#175

Post by sounds » Fri, May 31, 2013, 7:47 AM UTC

DannyBee wrote: post #158

sounds wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for that. That leaves just one legal issue that really needs to be raised: How is it legal to _deny_ me full access (defined by the removal of all Microsoft software, something the European Commission has repeatedly upheld) until I have completed some Microsoft-controlled procedure? I don't want Windows on the machine. Assuming I buy from the 3 largest vendors, excluding Apple, is it not anti-competitive to _l…

It's generally legal (at least in the US) to contract for almost anything. Consideration does not have to be money, it can be foregoing something. So for example, a contract for sale that said "i give you a copy of windows, and you agree not to marry anyone for 3 years and give me $50" would generally be valid, at least in the US. Everything else is an argument about whether the contract is "against public policy", o…

I still think a case could be made, since the purchaser of a computer has not entered any sort of contract with Microsoft, but is forced to navigate a Microsoft-controlled maze.

Re: Secure Boot isn't the only problem facing Linux on Windows 8 hardware

#176

Post by zimbatm » Sat, Jun 01, 2013, 12:39 PM UTC

rbanffy wrote: post #99

zimbatm wrote: post #93

Microsoft is doing the same thing as Apple with their iPhone and geeks get upset. Apple is not allowing arbitrary OS to run on their system unless you find an security hole and manage to work around the protection. I don't hear claims that Apple is having an uncompetitive behavior but obviously the difference is that they didn't take that away, iPhones have been locked down from day one. That said, I'm very much in t…

> Apple is not allowing arbitrary OS to run on their system Microsoft is not allowing arbitrary OSs to run on Dell's, Acer's, Lenovo's and Toshiba's hardware. If Microsoft wants to limit what Microsoft hardware can do, I'm fine with it - I just won't buy from them.

I think the point I was trying to make is that once Microsoft takes over the last commoditized land of unlocked hardware, buying a specialist's computer is going to be more expensive.

Re: Secure Boot isn't the only problem facing Linux on Windows 8 hardware

#177

Post by wnight » Sat, Jun 01, 2013, 3:36 PM UTC

Guvante wrote: post #134

sounds wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for that. That leaves just one legal issue that really needs to be raised: How is it legal to _deny_ me full access (defined by the removal of all Microsoft software, something the European Commission has repeatedly upheld) until I have completed some Microsoft-controlled procedure? I don't want Windows on the machine. Assuming I buy from the 3 largest vendors, excluding Apple, is it not anti-competitive to _l…

You seem to be under the impression that this setup was created for the express purpose of denying you access to the hardware until you have agreed to the EULA. However that is a direct contradiction of the person you are responding to, who mentions that this is a vestige of a certain set of configuration options that are common on Windows 8 machines. This is not intended, and will likely be patched if enough complai…

> denying you access to the firmware was never their intent.

Unlikely. With a new person or company it's sporting to give them the benefit of the doubt. With Microsoft if you're still ignoring everything illegal and anti-competitive they do you're on the payroll.

Microsoft specifically modified its products to sabotage a competitor, and lied about it. Microsoft faked evidence to use in Federal court and Bill presented that evidence though it was clearly wrong to anyone who'd used windows.

Why on Earth would anyone give them the benefit of the doubt?

The BSA, which they support, wouldn't give you the benefit of the doubt.

Re: Secure Boot isn't the only problem facing Linux on Windows 8 hardware

#178

Post by wnight » Sat, Jun 01, 2013, 3:41 PM UTC

DannyBee wrote: post #157

Supermighty wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In fact, i'd go so far as to say that if Microsoft ever actually tried to enforce, it would run them into serious regulatory trouble. And Microsoft probably knows this, and would avoid it at all costs. But having an overly broad EULA helps them push around the n00b Linux installer who doesn't know any better.

I completely agree that they would do this, right up until the point it got hairy for them.

It's too bad they can choose to stop once they've started. Like the patent trolls new-egg is fighting.

New-egg should essentially be able to take the trolls to court and part them out for sale, down to their CEO's organs, for trying this in the first place.