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Actually eat healthily for £1 per day

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Re: Actually eat healthily for £1 per day

#171
post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That kind of comment can only be excused by lack of experience. Try "making time" when, for example, you've got a job where you can't bring your food with you (and would have nowhere to heat it up even if you were permitted to bring it), a long commute and a family to spend time with. And I'm talking about a middle-class example. Now add being poor on top of that.

You got me - I have never been poor and have always found time to eat healthily. But let me explain my thinking: If I wanted to make more time - - I would give up all TV. - I would give up all internet, magazines and newspapers, except when commuting. - I would approach all my neighbours to see if I could car pool to get to work quicker, or if my kids could car pool with theirs to get to and from school without needi…

Have you ever tried to feed kids brussel sprouts? That alone would require more effort than it was worth to cook them.

I'm not poor, but I've definitely gone through a rough period or two in my past. During those periods I managed to eat pretty healthy, but it required a fairly decent amount of planning, and there were days when I had to make due with a cup of rice or nothing at all to make the budget work. I am talking about situations where I did not have enough money in the bank account on the day rent was due, and the credit cards were already maxed out. I was working, but the work was intermittent and unreliable (and very labor intensive). So I had time to ride my bike to multiple stores and get the cheapest food, and I had time to cook meals. I lived in a single room, shared house, so couldn't 'downsize' my living any more than it already was.

Once I got a 'real' job, things obviously improved dramatically, but keep in mind I had a college degree, so that was an easy transition to make. I look back fondly on that period, but have the luxury to do so because I always knew that it would be a temporary situation.

For the 'real' poor, they often live in areas where riding a bike to multiple stores to get the best deals is impossible. They often have to settle for fast food because their kids are hungry now, and they don't have enough money in the bank account to invest in groceries (i.e. spending $100 on groceries isn't possible, while spending $10 on fast food is, even if groceries are the better long term investment). Their employment situation tends to be fairly unstable, i.e. they work a lot some days/weeks, and little to no work on others. This means that they have to spend a LOT of effort trying to find work (and obviously, they are not getting paid while they do this).

Just to go through your points: - TV is often the cheapest form of entertainment for their kids. So if they get rid of the TV, then what? Take the kids to Laser Tag? - I didn't have internet when I was poor, somehow I have a feeling a lot of poor people are in the same boat. -From my experience, almost every one is using public transportation. Cars are a huge risk and require significant financial overhead. One mechanical issue could break the budget. Carpooling is very much a middle class luxury. - They probably live in subsidized housing already, so moving is not really something they can control. - They also probably have very limited employment options, which is part of the reason they are poor to begin with. Also see my previous comment on unstable work situations. -I think one of the biggest misconceptions about the poor, is that people see that they have a TV or an xbox or some kids toys and assume that because they can afford those 'luxury' items, that they must be able to afford other things. But the fact is, these durable consumer goods are fairly cheap when compared to the ongoing costs of shelter, food, insurance, etc.. But more importantly, credit companies and payday companies and financing schemes are overwhelmingly targeting the poor. They do this because they know they can get away with charging unreasonable rates. Often this results in a poor person making a few bad financial decisions, and subsequently getting trapped under the weight of the consequences (maxed out credit cards, debt collectors, etc..)

The fact is, on a micro level, any individual is capable of escaping poverty. If they work hard and make good financial decisions, and don't run into any bad luck, they can do it. But on a macro level, the poor as a whole face systematic pressures that make it very difficult to escape poverty. One or two financial missteps can put them in a hole that is nearly impossible to recover from. Telling people to 'work hard' or 'eat healthy' or 'be financially responsible' ignores the systematic pressures that they face that make all of these things extremely difficult if not impossible.

Re: Actually eat healthily for £1 per day

#172
post #65
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From a book called Rework [1]: "When you want something bad enough, you make the time - regardless of your other obligations. The truth is most people just don't want it bad enough. Then they protect their ego with the excuse of time." I think virtually everyone in the UK has the means to eat healthy if they really want to. [1] http://www.amazon.com/Rework-Jason-Fried/dp/0307463745

The idea that everyone has time to do 'X' if they only wanted it bad enough is complete BS. For people that work two jobs, have a family to take care of, commute several hours, have a sick spouse and sleep there is no more time in the day. No matter how badly you want it. Unless you or the author of Rework know of a magical formula to make the day longer than 24 hours or how to operate on little to no sleep.

Christ. Everyone in this entire argument sucks. You're trying to yell over each other and nobody can acknowledge that the other guy has a point.

There are millions of people in this country who are in a shitty situation and could do better. There are people who could do more to better themselves, but instead dick around on the Internet or watching TV and don't. They make excuses for why they can't do more to better themselves, but at the end they're a victim of their own rationalizations and justifications.

There are also people who might get up off the couch and improve their situation, except they simply don't know how to go about it. They've never cooked before, they don't know the first thing about gardening, and they aren't proficient enough with the Internet or learning in general to figure these things out from themselves except by expensive trial-and-error.

And finally, there are people who are right and truly fucked. They got stuck in a declining area of the country and there's nobody interested in buying their home at any price. Moving would be prohibitively expensive and disruptive to children and a spouse. They may even have to care for sick family members, completely eliminating the possibility of moving. They have crappy job skills, but are working 30 hours a week to make ends meet and have no time to learn new skills (which might not even be in demand in the area they live). They might live far enough away from job centers that the cost of the commuting farther would cost more than would be gained.

The fact that one of these groups exists does not disprove the existence of any other. There are hundreds of millions of people in this country, and they exist in a continuum in virtually every life circumstance one could imagine. To some of them, cbdonath's advice and stance could be absolutely spot-on. To many others, the advice is completely impractical and impossible to achieve.

cbdonath's main point seems to be that there are a ton of people who use their crappy situation to rationalize a mindset that keeps them where they are. This is true.

Everyone else's point seems to be that there are millions of people in this country who are so far beyond fucked, that no advice is enough to pull them out of the crapfest of a situation they're in. This is also true.

So congratulations. Everybody's right. Now stop fighting like children.

Re: Actually eat healthily for £1 per day

#173
post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure if you are just naive or intentionally contrary. Please, explain to me how a family that can barely afford rent and meals can move 1000 miles away and find work. It's not really that easy to find a new job in a town you've never been to. Or a couple in which one is handicapped or seriously ill can 'change the arrangement' You made your situation better. Congratulations. I mean that. But assuming everyone…

Intentionally contrary, as I see a glaring over-application of "poor" and "can't". This country was founded on people having very little walking very long distances to build homesteads from nothing. I'll agree there are some people who truly can't make the changes I indicated; we have a social safety net for them, and I do put in a weekly effort to help them. Most who whine "I can't" can, they just won't. Obviously t…

> This country was founded on people having very little walking very long distances to build homesteads from nothing.

You mean all those homesteaders that killed native people and stole their land with the backing the government?

> I'll agree there are some people who truly can't make the changes I indicated; we have a social safety net for them, and I do put in a weekly effort to help them. Most who whine "I can't" can, they just won't.

The social safety net is far from adequate enough to negate these problems, assuming one is even able to qualify and access those programs.

> Obviously there are exceptions, and a short aphorism of "you'll do it if you want it bad enough" is not expected to have encyclopedic thoroughness covering those few genuine cases who really, truly, can't; it's directed at the other 99.99% whose only real barriers to success is themselves.

Do you really believe that 99.99% of folks who have a shitty situation just can't muster the effort to change things? Do you really believe that people WANT to live that way? To constantly be uncertain if they are going to be able to work, to be able to get health care, to eat, to have a home, to not face imminent violence? Western society is not organized for the welfare of the people in it and there are social and institutional forces that actively keep people from the things we have been talking about.

Re: Actually eat healthily for £1 per day

#174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're relying very heavily on this "well it's physically possible, that means if someone doesn't do it they don't really want to" trope. It's pretty lazy, I've got to say. Stop using it like a sledgehammer. No, don't say "I can't help but use it like a sledgehammer": try to make a new, novel suggestion beyond "just try harder!" Evidence that it's pretty damn lazy: you can use it anywhere. A Roman slave, upset about…

Again, I'll acknowledge some people truly can't. I've found they're a fairly small subset of those claiming/imputed "can't". We're not talking Roman slaves here. "Work 'til you drop or we'll kill you" isn't at issue. A poor person in rural India really is poor. Under $2/day income (world median) is poor. My sympathies and help. Blaming the social structures WE live in, no. Assistance, tools, opportunities, etc are pr…

Required to make your own food everyday are both physical and mental abilities. Low-income Americans are certainly more than physically capable of putting together three meals per day, but they may lack the motivation, inspiration, knowledge, or skill required to do so. I certainly needed my sous-chef best friend living with me and teaching me the virtues of cooking for 3 months to really get the skills and habits down.

This is not something to argue about. The best you can do is empower people, so stop arguing on discussion forums – go forth and empower!

Re: Actually eat healthily for £1 per day

#175
post #108
post #75

Just reading Antifragile, and stumble on this seemingly immortal shitcliché: one need to eat "At least 55 grams of protein per day", "Around 50% of food energy from carbohydrate". I do not even want to know what a carbothing is. This is plain proved horseshit. Our stomach has been prepared by Mother Evolution to handle a wide range of variation in the feed. And the risk of stomach boredom is very real. So the real pr…

On the one hand, you have a point, and it's really tempting to give into this sort of ethos, as an approach to diet and nutrition, but at some point it becomes important to acknowledge that a very real and practical biology reigns over your internal organic processes. These processes can be measured and understood at a chemical level. We don't understand them perfectly, and many people (maybe more than half the world…

> many people (maybe more than half the world?) don't actually measure out their hunger in grams and milliliters

You seem serious here, so I have to take it seriously. Then I'll break it to you: people who measure their hunger in grams are at most 1% of the world. Nobody does it in France and Europe, neither in China, India, Africa, etc.

What seems a rational and normal behavior to you is a crazy and facepalming waste of time.

Moreover, despite the down votes (thanks for explaining by the way), I still think this behavior is harmful and anti natural. The evolution gave us a stomach that, normally tuned, will react to hunger, good food, bad food, with sensations of pleasure or displeasure. Bypassing this is risky, increase your fragility.

Food is not chemistry, it is more ancient, more important in our daily lives, it is has a direct influence on health and mood, it should be taken with precautions, and it must be eaten with enjoyment.

Re: Actually eat healthily for £1 per day

#176
post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On weekdays? Long job, long commute, children, sleep - yes, it is easy to have pretty much no free time for most of the week.

The total time it takes to start the rice cooker, slice a chicken breast (it can even be frozen, just slice it small), and give the chicken a quick fry in my cast iron pan (which I then rinse out and wipe clean, 10 seconds cleanup) is probably less time than you'll spend sitting in the drivethrough of McDonalds. While you're waiting for the rice to cook, you can spend some time with your kids or watch the expensive c…

Ricer cookers are magic.

One of my favorite "I'm too tire too cook" meals is to just chop up whatever veggies I have laying around or picked up at the corner store on my way home, and toss the whole mess along with some rice into a rice cooker. I usually include some other random other miscellaneous dried grains/seeds/beans I have in bags to add some taste variety (red lentils = incredible, they're like a spice and a staple at the same time!). You don't need to pay any attention to the actual cooking, because the rice cooker will do it perfectly every time, without attention or care.

Press the button, veg in front of the computer for a while, rice cooker beeps, and ... dinner! :D

Cleanup is just a 2 second wash of the the non-stick pot...

Re: Actually eat healthily for £1 per day

#177
post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The total time it takes to start the rice cooker, slice a chicken breast (it can even be frozen, just slice it small), and give the chicken a quick fry in my cast iron pan (which I then rinse out and wipe clean, 10 seconds cleanup) is probably less time than you'll spend sitting in the drivethrough of McDonalds. While you're waiting for the rice to cook, you can spend some time with your kids or watch the expensive c…

Ricer cookers are magic. One of my favorite "I'm too tire too cook" meals is to just chop up whatever veggies I have laying around or picked up at the corner store on my way home, and toss the whole mess along with some rice into a rice cooker. I usually include some other random other miscellaneous dried grains/seeds/beans I have in bags to add some taste variety (red lentils = incredible, they're like a spice and a…

It's a bit more expensive, but I also like taking Zatarain's boxed black beans and rice ($2), getting it started, then tossing in some chunks of raw chicken as soon as it starts boiling. It's quick, you basically mix the ingredients together and stir occasionally until it's done. For about $3-4 (once you buy a chicken breast) you get a tasty dish with rice, beans, and chicken that'll serve two.

Re: Actually eat healthily for £1 per day

#178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I just got here in passing, and I have to admit I'm kind on the side of ctdonath here. Currently, I'm working 3 jobs (one is 6 hours a day, the other two are two projects I'm working on that are 2-4 hours a day, total.) In addition to this, I'm finishing my PhD (or trying, time is scarce lately) but I still find the 10-15 minutes it takes to open the gas stove and prepare some sauteed vegetables, the 10 minutes it ta…

Well it's kind of a false equivalency to try to say that 30 minutes cooking dinner is the same as 30 minutes preparing convenience food. Cooking meat, cooking beans, cooking rice, sauteing veggies, preparing a salad, whatever, is not the same as putting a frozen lasagna in the oven for 30 minutes while you veg out on the couch and unwind. Sure, it's 30 minutes, but what really counts is what you're doing in that 30 m…

I don't think 30 minutes preparing a meal is the same as having it done. It's really completely different... I'm not perfect at this either, and sometimes the tradeoff of 30 minutes to prepare something is too big and I just do something quicker (rarely prepared food, but I love bread with olive oil and cheese, so it feels great for me when I'm not in the mood for cooking.)

It all depends on how you value those 30 minutes. If there's something in TV you want to watch and will make you happier/more energetic, it probably is worth the extra cost prepared food has. If you are just watching some nonsense to disconnect your brain... Well, stirring a pot is also quite a zen experience, far better than most TV programs :D

Re: Actually eat healthily for £1 per day

#179
post #156
post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Common sense advice has not changed particularly much over the past twenty years. ...There are some things - dietary cholesterol isn't seen as evil (but the foods it's in are)." No, definitely false. Dietary cholesterol has definitely been considered a bad thing and for the last 30 years people were told to avoid it, by heart doctors, in the form of avoiding cholesterol in your diet, in that specific terminology. It…

Please read my comment again. You rant about cholesterol. Cholesterol is an example I give of advice that has changed. You appear to misunderstand that very simple point I made. > Low fat diets have been advocated for decades now without a word given to what the fat was replaced with, because the fat was considered So Obviously Bad it didn't matter, anything was better. No, this is wrong. Calm dieticians have been su…

Cholesterol... Please check how many milligrams or - actually - grams of cholesterol does your liver create every single day. Also note, that Vitamin D is naturally metabolized from cholesterol. Metabolism is not simple and it is not calories in and calories out.

I do not see how natural sea salt is harmful? For ages people had dried salt from the sea to be used in foods as well as cleanser for skin and balsam for hair. Just my 2 cents.

Re: Actually eat healthily for £1 per day

#180
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Food is not just a mechanical source of fuel, surely? Speak for yourself. > I couldn't abide eating the same stuff more than a couple of days in a row, let alone every day for weeks at a time. I've eaten the same lunch every day for well over a year or more at times. Food is fuel; it doesn't have to be a source of entertainment.

Speak for yourself. I love food. I adore it. It's part of my heritage, my family, part of our lives, our childhoods. Good food is up there with good sex, it's an overwhelming and amazing experience. I absolutely understand that some people find food an annoying necessity and not something to take pleasure in, but many of us, I'd posit an overwhelming majority in fact, love and enjoy and relish our day to day meals. A…

I didn't say it can't be a source of entertainment, I said it doesn't have to be. I take great please in many meals; but food is fuel and I require "just" fuel most of the time, every meal isn't an experience and doesn't need to be. Most meals are just fuel. That doesn't mean I don't take pleasure in meals intended for taking pleasure in; it isn't that black and white.
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