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Iron Ring

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Re: Iron Ring

#171

Post by lholden »

damoncali wrote: post #143
gknoy wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For those of us who are not Engineers, can you elaborate (or point us to more info) on the Important Ethical Considerations? I've always struggled to explain why programming is not engineering.

As a programmer who was once an engineer by trade, I would say the difference is that engineering implies manipulation of the pysical sciences, where programming is just logic.

"Just logic" I think really underplays things. That logic ends up in flight control systems, valve control for oil rigs, power grid management, robotics, factory automation, satellites, etc. A lot of software programming has very physical implications.

Re: Iron Ring

#172

Post by seabrookmx »

bw2 wrote: post #165

While this will like devolve into a trite discussion about why programming computers is just the same as building a bridge, it's offensive that the software industry takes for granted just how much work goes into earning something like this ring versus coding JavaScript. I worked my way through college doing web development while studying 80 hours per week on top of that for years to get my engineering degrees. Havin…

It's also offensive that non-computer science majors take for granted how much work goes into earning a CS degree.

Coding JavaScript is to Computer Science as drafting is to a Mechanical Engineer. Your argument shows how naive your CS knowledge really is.

Also, as has been stated, SEng majors can get the iron ring, so the whole argument you are talking about is moot.

Re: Iron Ring

#173

Post by saraid216 »

flashmedium wrote: post #151
adamgravitis wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's actually not about having "earned" it; it's not meant to be a token of having completed the degree, or having been stupendously good at some technical piece of work. It's meant as a reminder to the obligation you have to society not to cut corners on safety, and that your responsibilities to your employer do not outweigh those you have to Canadians generally.

and an engineer needs a ring to remind him of the above?

The Order has been coming up on HN recently because a number of err... unethical practices are being implemented by engineers who are theoretically "just doing their job". There was a request that engineers refuse to do such jobs on ethical grounds, and this was one of the traditions pointed out as doing exactly that.

Re: Iron Ring

#175

Post by danshapiro »

"Early attempts to extend The Ritual of the Calling of an Engineer to the United States were unsuccessful due to complications including copyright issues."

Re: Iron Ring

#176

Post by Tyrannosaurs »

moioci wrote: post #19

Instead of an iron ring, should software Engineers be awarded an infinite loop, possibly in the form of a Moebius strip?

The science writer Simon Singh wears a Mobius scarf (a neck scarf sewed together as a Mobius strip). Pretty easy to do if you wanted to.

I'm guessing he's not the only one but he's the one I've come across.

Re: Iron Ring

#177

Post by Tyrannosaurs »

bw2 wrote: post #165

While this will like devolve into a trite discussion about why programming computers is just the same as building a bridge, it's offensive that the software industry takes for granted just how much work goes into earning something like this ring versus coding JavaScript. I worked my way through college doing web development while studying 80 hours per week on top of that for years to get my engineering degrees. Havin…

This is because the industry, like most groups, values outputs, not inputs.

The skills you have, how you use them and where you learned them are inputs which means that on their own they are largely irrelevant.

It's entirely possible to make a good career, delivering genuine value to organisations and individuals, doing work you can be proud of without having any understanding of CS beyond that you'll pick up during your day to day work and a little reading around the subject. I've worked with great programmers who graduated in science, history, psychology, electronic engineering and so on. These were people who could go toe to toe technically with CS graduates and in some cases they bought things to the table that added significant value which were relatively rare in people with a more conventional computing background. Why does the fact of having not studied computer science formally make them any less valuable?

Bottom line: yes you worked very hard to get your degree and made a significant financial investment in it, but what's important now is what you do with it and that's what you'll be judged on. If you can't translate that knowledge into results why should it be significant?

Re: Iron Ring

#178

Post by dsaber »

Even though I'm currently living in Silicon Valley, I still where my Canadian engineering ring. Many people ask me what it's for. Usually, people are surprised to learn about it. In contrast, it feels good that in Canada I don't have answer similar questions: most know what it's for.

Re: Iron Ring

#179

Post by jplmelanson »

herge wrote: post #98
jplmelanson wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Quebec, the title is simply "Engineer". Upon finishing an accredited program, the ring is delivered in a ceremony. After graduation and deliverance of the diploma, one can register with the professional order and call himself "Junior Engineer". This gives the right to practice engineering under supervision by an Engineer for a minimum period of 2 years (3 years min. without supervision). Before requesting the righ…

> There is currently no widespread recognition of the profession in the IT community. We almost never see any job posting requiring the title, or any company giving additional compensation/responsabilities because of the title. The main difference between a comp sci. degree and a software eng. degree when I graduated in Quebec (circa 2007) was mostly courses about rational rose and the waterfall process. Software Eng…

This is not true and you know it.

Re: Iron Ring

#180

Post by throwaway1979 »

ovoxo wrote: post #65
npsimons wrote: post #20

Perhaps we should have a silicon ring for software engineers. And in case you are thinking "that would break too easily", well that's part of the point: to remind you that software can also be very easily broken, sometimes without even trying :)

I'm a Software Engineer in Canada and I have an iron ring but that is because our Software Engineering programs (at least the ones that I know of) are accredited engineering programs - i.e. you must go through much of the same hell as other engineers.

Which school?
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