Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

GitHub donates private repositories to women learning open source software

adainitiative.org

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

171–180 of 181 posts

Re: GitHub donates private repositories to women learning open source software

#171

Post by jmj42 »

anoncow wrote: post #164
jmj42 wrote: post #79

You know this makes me sick. Time and time again, articles pop up here on HN talking about some organization trying to promote and encourage women in technology and the comments explode with privileged boys whining about about how "it's not fair" You know what's not fair? A Teacher telling a 12 year old girl that she needs a backup plan because girls getting an engineering degree, well, that's hard. Getting one from…

You will agree when I say that being a male or a female is not really an advantage or disadvantage. And that either gender should be allowed to pursue whatever they like. If the teacher, society and everyone else in the world says to your little one that she cannot do it, you say to her she can. Because she can and your gender doesn't matter. And when you start telling your daughter that she can, that is one less per…

Actually, I don't agree with much of what you've said. Men do have advantages, socially, politically, and economically, that women do not have, and those advantages are far more prevalent in STEM fields than most others. These programs, directed at young women, act as a counter-balance (though a weak one) to the societal pressures that keep them out of technology in the first place. When men (of any age) cry foul, well, I just don't have any sympathy. Even with these programs, the scales still weigh heavily in our favor.

Up to this point, I've not taken a stance on this particular program, but I will not. There's plenty of research that suggests that the impact of public ridicule on young women is different than the impact on young men. While the reasons for this aren't, necessarily, clear, the reaction is different. Allowing young women to develop their skills in a "safe" environment where criticism can be sought from trusted sources prior to making that work public has been shown to be beneficial. So, in the end, I do support the idea of making it easier for young women to to get private github accounts. As I also support "girls only" clubs that help develop their skills, and counter act the social pressures that push young women away from technology in the first place. These programs do exactly as you suggest, they attempt to level the playing field by giving women certain advantages and encouragement to balance the social, political, and economic advantages that men already have. Until such time as we actually have gender equality, these programs are necessary.

Re: GitHub donates private repositories to women learning open source software

#172

Post by theorique »

marquis wrote: post #124
theorique wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What are the data about salary balance between male and female programmers doing the same job / same team? I wonder if anyone has any research, data, or links. (And please no one post that tired old $0.73 number that is averaged over all jobs, all roles, all hours-per-week!)

It is estimated that 9-12% of programmers are women. I don't have any figures on salaries but most of us don't get to be CEO unless you start your own business.

Makes sense.

One thing I'm curious to know is, of that 9-12%, for people hired at the same salary band or experience level[1], would there be differences between men's and women's salaries? And if so, what would they be? In such a case, the comparison would be meaningful.

[1] for example, comparing within salary bands or job titles: Associate SE, SE, Senior SE, Principal SE.

Re: GitHub donates private repositories to women learning open source software

#173

Post by marquis »

theorique wrote: post #172
marquis wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is estimated that 9-12% of programmers are women. I don't have any figures on salaries but most of us don't get to be CEO unless you start your own business.

Makes sense. One thing I'm curious to know is, of that 9-12%, for people hired at the same salary band or experience level[1], would there be differences between men's and women's salaries? And if so, what would they be? In such a case, the comparison would be meaningful. [1] for example, comparing within salary bands or job titles: Associate SE, SE, Senior SE, Principal SE.

A quick google found this which probably means that women tend to rise into middle management quite easily - that's not unusual in most areas. I think the numbers look better than they are because there are not massively larger salaries for programmers as there are for attorneys etc.

http://www.gamespot.com/news/average-2012-us-dev-salary-8400...

Reading this makes me think: if women make more in the programming sector than any other field, why do we feel so downtrodden? To be honest, aside from a few experiences when I was young I've not experienced any misogyny from my peers, but I do almost daily from customers. I think I may be really happy because I'm with an amazing team who care about each other. I take the time to build my team's character and it pays off when I need the extra support.

Re: GitHub donates private repositories to women learning open source software

#174

Post by anoncow »

jmj42 wrote: post #171
anoncow wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You will agree when I say that being a male or a female is not really an advantage or disadvantage. And that either gender should be allowed to pursue whatever they like. If the teacher, society and everyone else in the world says to your little one that she cannot do it, you say to her she can. Because she can and your gender doesn't matter. And when you start telling your daughter that she can, that is one less per…

Actually, I don't agree with much of what you've said. Men do have advantages, socially, politically, and economically, that women do not have, and those advantages are far more prevalent in STEM fields than most others. These programs, directed at young women, act as a counter-balance (though a weak one) to the societal pressures that keep them out of technology in the first place. When men (of any age) cry foul, we…

I certainly hope that a time comes when things are better. Not just for women and not just in IT. I don't know the situation on the ground and neither do I work in education. The views above are what I hold with the limited experience that i have had and are malleable.

Re: GitHub donates private repositories to women learning open source software

#175

Post by anoncow »

anoncow wrote: post #167
jmj42 wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sure there are areas of the world where gender equality isn't a problem, but where your're from (mexico as indicated above) it most certainly is. A quick internet search came up with hundreds of articles on the gender equality issues in Mexico, including, a female to male income ratio of .62, ranking Mexico 53rd (USA is 13th at .67). So guess what, privileged male, it is a very big problem where you live.

Ah! I shouldn't feed the trolls.

I made this comment because of the 'privileged male' part.

Re: GitHub donates private repositories to women learning open source software

#176

Post by sneak »

selenamarie wrote: post #151
marquis wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you back this statement up please? I'm interested to hear where these comments originate.

If you're interested in TAI's position on discussing sex in technical conferences and how that (in general) impacts women's participation: http://adainitiative.org/2012/09/when-sex-and-porn-are-on-to... (This post predates the BSides incident by 5 months.) And, about BSides: http://adainitiative.org/2013/02/keeping-it-on-topic-the-pro... http://adainitiative.org/2013/03/clarification-on-the-ada-in...

The talk that they censored WAS TO BE GIVEN BY A WOMAN.

That doesn't really hold up their argument of sexualized environments in tech being inherently hostile to women participating, does it?

Anyone who examines this can see that this is simply a personal censorship crusade by Ms. Aurora, presumably as a result of her own sex-related trauma(s) and/or upbringing. (Google her and her father for her own account of it— it's not ad hominem.)[1]

Just because her psyche has been damaged does not mean she has the right to attempt to censor others who are not participating in discriminatory behavior. The whole thing about "exploit" in the title being a synonym for rape (as in exploiting a system without the owner's consent) illustrates how ridiculous her flimsy argument against it was and is.

This sort of concern-trolling makes women in tech appear to be hard to work with or require special handling/censorship considerations, and is actively harmful to the struggle for gender equality. It has absolutely no place whatsoever at a tech conference.

[1] http://valerieaurora.org/keith.html

Re: GitHub donates private repositories to women learning open source software

#177

Post by selenamarie »

sneak wrote: post #176
selenamarie wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you're interested in TAI's position on discussing sex in technical conferences and how that (in general) impacts women's participation: http://adainitiative.org/2012/09/when-sex-and-porn-are-on-to... (This post predates the BSides incident by 5 months.) And, about BSides: http://adainitiative.org/2013/02/keeping-it-on-topic-the-pro... http://adainitiative.org/2013/03/clarification-on-the-ada-in...

The talk that they censored WAS TO BE GIVEN BY A WOMAN. That doesn't really hold up their argument of sexualized environments in tech being inherently hostile to women participating, does it? Anyone who examines this can see that this is simply a personal censorship crusade by Ms. Aurora, presumably as a result of her own sex-related trauma(s) and/or upbringing. (Google her and her father for her own account of it— i…

I find the continued personal attacks on Val to be disgusting and an embarrassment to people in the hacker and security communities. I no longer consider myself to be part of those communities, but once was.

My hope is that people see these statements for what they are: disgusting personal attacks.

Re: GitHub donates private repositories to women learning open source software

#178

Post by sneak »

selenamarie wrote: post #177
sneak wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The talk that they censored WAS TO BE GIVEN BY A WOMAN. That doesn't really hold up their argument of sexualized environments in tech being inherently hostile to women participating, does it? Anyone who examines this can see that this is simply a personal censorship crusade by Ms. Aurora, presumably as a result of her own sex-related trauma(s) and/or upbringing. (Google her and her father for her own account of it— i…

I find the continued personal attacks on Val to be disgusting and an embarrassment to people in the hacker and security communities. I no longer consider myself to be part of those communities, but once was. My hope is that people see these statements for what they are: disgusting personal attacks.

I am not attacking her personally, just criticizing her actions. I was careful to make that completely unambiguous.

What gave you the impression that I was attacking her?

Re: GitHub donates private repositories to women learning open source software

#179

Post by whiterabbit2 »

jmj42 wrote: post #79

You know this makes me sick. Time and time again, articles pop up here on HN talking about some organization trying to promote and encourage women in technology and the comments explode with privileged boys whining about about how "it's not fair" You know what's not fair? A Teacher telling a 12 year old girl that she needs a backup plan because girls getting an engineering degree, well, that's hard. Getting one from…

It's exactly "the teacher" telling an adult woman that she needs a private repository because learning coding is hard, and she needs extra protection from having it open sourced. Women just can't go ahead and do open source, period, they need a backup plan. How exactly is it encouraging and fair to women? You completely missed the point that it wasn't about the free repos. On a top of it, it's Ada Initiative giving their own space on GitHub (upon you emailing them, sigh), not GitHub itself. I myself wouldn't sign up to them, they sound quite toxic and politicized... (for the reference, I'm a woman, a software developer).

Re: GitHub donates private repositories to women learning open source software

#180

Post by whiterabbit2 »

lizzard wrote: post #154

I've been answering emails along with other Ada Initiative folks all afternoon!! A lot of women all over the world are very happy and excited to get to try things out on github. The Systers list was so helpful in distributing the link to a diverse worldwide group of women in the field and students just starting out. I think this will have a very positive result and bring many more women into fully contributing to F/L…

REALLY? I'm a subscriber of a few lists for women in tech (Systers included), only one posted the link (followed by no comments). Systers tech talk posted nothing. Systers-dev and -foss, neither. Although, I'm probably subscribed to wrong groups... such as women working in tech (including learners), mostly programming. Not lists for people having problems with programming.
Post reply on HN