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$10,000 Raised for PyLadies at PyCon 2013

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Re: $10,000 Raised for PyLadies at PyCon 2013

#171

Post by wpietri »

monksy wrote: post #168
king_jester wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How so? We know women as a group have a hard time accessing and existing in tech spaces already for a variety of reasons, so why wouldn't some of the reaction that was misogynistic be a deterrent?

> We know women as a group have a hard time accessing and existing in tech spaces I find it rather funny to read that. There are no physical barriers for working in tech or learning. It's all based on the individual's motivation to learn and do. Maybe it's just me but from the most of the "harassment" I see is from socially-awkward individuals that have a difficult time communicating what they're interested in. There…

Yes, the only possible barriers are physical ones. Motivation is a completely intrinsic quality, perfectly unaffected by how people are treated. And yes, harassment is totally ok if the person meant well, or at least didn't provably intend harm. That's just how it's done, after all! Women should be grateful for the attention!

Seriously, it's depressing to read a total dismissal of the actual experiences of half the planet like that. And a willingness to opine on the issues with zero understanding of the history or the lived experience of women in tech. If you're going to call yourself a geek, try learning a little about the topic before you speak.

Re: $10,000 Raised for PyLadies at PyCon 2013

#172

Post by granitepail »

overgryphon wrote: post #157
RyanMcGreal wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not a freaking rhetorical device to point out that every single time a woman speaks up about inappropriate behaviour, she ends up paying a terrible price in harassment, abuse, threats, and hatred. It is theoretically possible to have a civil discussion about whether Richards went about reporting the inappropriate behaviour in the right way (and it is 100% clear that the PyCon organizers agreed the behaviour was…

I am a woman, and I work in software development, so I'm assuming I fit in your group called "women in tech". I have no idea what insults, abuse, threats, contempt, ridicule, disdain, and disregard I apparently have been routinely facing. If "women in tech" did suffer so severely on a daily basis, it would not be relevant to Richards. Her job description seems to be "Developer Evangelist". I'm not sure what that spec…

This kind of response terrifies me. I'm a man, so maybe I am not in a place to correct you, but I have gotten the impression that the pressure and discomfort wrought by this kind of behavior (whether or not you have a thick enough skin to deal with it) pushes a lot of women away from tech in the first place. Even if you try and reduce the behavior to "little boys club" material, such joking is still alienating to many women.

Not only are you reducing her importance based on her former title/role at SendGrid, but you're saying her behavior warranted ("opened herself to") harassment. No two men or women are the same, but your not sympathizing with her at all confounds me.

EDIT: fixed a typo

Re: $10,000 Raised for PyLadies at PyCon 2013

#173

Post by obstacle1 »

wpietri wrote: post #170
obstacle1 wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which misogynists? The ones who made threatening/abusive comments on Twitter? Or are you calling anyone who disagrees with Richards's handling of this situation a misogynist? If the former, don't worry. Those people don't represent the tech community, they are kids who hang out on imageboards and spread hate. To everyone. Including men. Do I need to provide some examples of /b/ tarring and feathering male victims on…

I'm going to keep worrying. I agree that those people don't represent the tech community. On the other hand, their behavior has caused legitimate fear among women in tech about speaking up. And it's not like the tech community rose up as one against the hatemongers: there was a lot of quiet and not-so-quiet support for how things turned out. There was plenty of aggressive examination of what Adria Richards did, with…

I fail to see what "rising up" against an army of random alt accounts on Twitter would have accomplished. Those are people completely irrelevant to the scene, we don't work with them, they don't contribute to our culture, we're not responsible for their actions, we're not even affected by their actions (no, being tweeted at is not being affected). Not addressing them is the best course of action.

Further I don't really see evidence of this having caused more fear among women in tech. In fact one of the more popular blog responses was written by a woman, speaking out against _both_ Adria Richards and the Twitter Idiots. Guess she forgot to retract into her shell for that one.

>There was plenty of aggressive examination of what Adria Richards did

Which is how it should have been. She handled the situation in a shockingly ridiculous way. _Shockingly_. And it turned out she had a history of doing such shockingly antagonistic things to anyone who wasn't black and/or a woman. People must know that being a member of a "protected class" isn't a license to be a complete asshole, and it isn't a license to abuse your professional standing to further your political cause. We need to foster a culture of civility all-around. This is what the "woman fired for calling out sexism" crew is missing.

Maybe those who are still shilling the extremist "OMG SYSTEMIC MISOGYNY" line should head to pyvideo.org. A good number of the talks at the con were given by women. THESE women were the ones "speaking out" -- as part of the community, on merit, rather than as shameless ideologues. Two of the best talks I've seen from this year were given by women: Jessica McKellar's and Julia Grace's. There are plenty of women out there who, for whatever reason, don't feel excluded from tech and who frankly kick ass professionally. I wonder why this is?

Less unsubstantiated political BS, more meritocracy. That is the road to solving the gender "problem" in tech. Not hiring "developer evangelists" who don't code/build/do anything and whose jobs are rife with potential for ideological abuse.

Re: $10,000 Raised for PyLadies at PyCon 2013

#174

Post by SeanDav »

king_jester wrote: post #90
SeanDav wrote: post #13

In the light of what happened at PyCon with Adria Richards and the whole internet explosion of nastiness and short sightedness from all sides I actually don't quite know what to think about "Women in Tech" I saw so much hate that I was ashamed to be a male and in tech, yet I also saw so much narrow minded reporting and deliberate distortion of events from many so called feminists and feminist activists (not all femal…

> I saw so much hate that I was ashamed to be a male and in tech, yet I also saw so much narrow minded reporting and deliberate distortion of events from many so called feminists and feminist activists (not all female btw) that a part of me would be quite happy if I never saw a female in tech again. So because there was an incident revolving around a woman and varying degrees of of what people consider feminism, you'…

Basically, you are pretty much wrong with all your points, at least that which you ascribe to my motives and thoughts. You are trying to twist my meaning into something different and then judge me on that - Classic straw man argument.

My post is a personal opinion and an honest representation of how I feel at the moment. I feel deeply concerned with what happened, how it happened and potential consequences.

It should be understood as a whole and not a series of logical points, taken separately and over analysed to try convey meaning and messages which simply aren't intended or even there.

I could counter every one of your arguments, but not going to go into it on this forum, I have basically had my say. If you have a lot more to argue about, perhaps make a blog post and we can move the discussion there.

Re: $10,000 Raised for PyLadies at PyCon 2013

#175

Post by MartinCron »

WayneDB wrote: post #162
MartinCron wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The other thing passes within a few moments Sure that one particular flurry of dick jokes passed in a few moments. Pervasive juvenile humor is part of a culture and environment that is hostile and alienating to so many. If you don't find that environment hostile and alienating, good for you! Not everyone is going to be exactly like you. Seriously, if childish little jokes are so damn important, they can wait until th…

(nesting maximum reached) I don't think I'm misunderstanding you at all. You said that "juvenile" humor is pervasive. Wouldn't that indicate that the general consensus is that this type of humor is OK? Let's get it straight - the (very small) minority here want to make the environment more comfortable for themselves. (Also, nobody has ever explained to me why a joke or even a conversation about this one particular bo…

Also, I didn't say juvenile humor is pervasive, I meant to say that when a culture's juvenile humor becomes pervasive then it creates a hostile environment.

My mistake for being ambiguous.

Re: $10,000 Raised for PyLadies at PyCon 2013

#176

Post by monksy »

wpietri wrote: post #171
monksy wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We know women as a group have a hard time accessing and existing in tech spaces I find it rather funny to read that. There are no physical barriers for working in tech or learning. It's all based on the individual's motivation to learn and do. Maybe it's just me but from the most of the "harassment" I see is from socially-awkward individuals that have a difficult time communicating what they're interested in. There…

Yes, the only possible barriers are physical ones. Motivation is a completely intrinsic quality, perfectly unaffected by how people are treated. And yes, harassment is totally ok if the person meant well, or at least didn't provably intend harm. That's just how it's done, after all! Women should be grateful for the attention! Seriously, it's depressing to read a total dismissal of the actual experiences of half the p…

There are no physical barriers that prevent women from operating in tech. There is no requirement to lift heavy machinery. There is nothing about operating a computer that requires a masculine body structure nor is there anything in the female body structure that prevents it. There are many individuals in the tech field that took to programming because it satisfied a curiosity, not because "you're x and you're required to learn it." Tech [due to the typically socially isolating nature] is typically [I guess now you can say traditionally] discouraged to everyone.

I never claimed that women were "deserving of the attention." I also never stated that the harassment is ok either. My opinion about where I perceive most of the harassment coming from is misjudged. I'm stating that there is a problem that they don't know how to communicate what they want effectively. It's impossible to learn social skills in a vacuum. It's even worse when the opposite gender expects those skills and they aren't there.

It is ok for a guy to be interested in a girl that he may work with and express this, it is not ok for the guy to refuse to accept and keep persisting. You can't just go from being cold and strangers to knowing each other better without someone making a statement/action.

Motivation is a big deal, I'll agree. But pushing younger girls into coding camps isn't the answer, thats not going to build motivation. If that model worked you'd see professional girlscouts.

Re: $10,000 Raised for PyLadies at PyCon 2013

#177

Post by monksy »

RyanMcGreal wrote: post #77
pifflesnort wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a rhetorical device, intended to use an emotional argument ("hatred, rage, vulgar insults and detailed threads of rape, bodily harm, and murder!!!") to justify totally unrelated behavior of public naming and shaming for a mild offense. This is exactly the sort of virulent emotionally-driven argumentative behavior that I don't want to have become a standard fixture in the technology community. Issues like this…

It's not a freaking rhetorical device to point out that every single time a woman speaks up about inappropriate behaviour, she ends up paying a terrible price in harassment, abuse, threats, and hatred. It is theoretically possible to have a civil discussion about whether Richards went about reporting the inappropriate behaviour in the right way (and it is 100% clear that the PyCon organizers agreed the behaviour was…

> every single time a woman speaks up about inappropriate behaviour, she ends up paying a terrible price in harassment, abuse, threats, and hatred.

Are you sure about that? That sounds a bit of an extreme statement. Most disputes in life are handled privately and quietly. There is very little need to sensationalize everything.

Re: $10,000 Raised for PyLadies at PyCon 2013

#178

Post by wpietri »

monksy wrote: post #176
wpietri wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, the only possible barriers are physical ones. Motivation is a completely intrinsic quality, perfectly unaffected by how people are treated. And yes, harassment is totally ok if the person meant well, or at least didn't provably intend harm. That's just how it's done, after all! Women should be grateful for the attention! Seriously, it's depressing to read a total dismissal of the actual experiences of half the p…

There are no physical barriers that prevent women from operating in tech. There is no requirement to lift heavy machinery. There is nothing about operating a computer that requires a masculine body structure nor is there anything in the female body structure that prevents it. There are many individuals in the tech field that took to programming because it satisfied a curiosity, not because "you're x and you're requir…

Nobody has ever said that there is some sort of physical barrier, so I'm not sure why you need to argue against it. Nobody has ever said that colleagues shouldn't date ever, so again, you're beating up a straw man.

The point of girl scouts isn't to make professional girl scouts, so that's another straw man.

If you're going to argue against something, make sure that there's actually somebody on the other side.

Re: $10,000 Raised for PyLadies at PyCon 2013

#179

Post by wpietri »

obstacle1 wrote: post #173
wpietri wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm going to keep worrying. I agree that those people don't represent the tech community. On the other hand, their behavior has caused legitimate fear among women in tech about speaking up. And it's not like the tech community rose up as one against the hatemongers: there was a lot of quiet and not-so-quiet support for how things turned out. There was plenty of aggressive examination of what Adria Richards did, with…

I fail to see what "rising up" against an army of random alt accounts on Twitter would have accomplished. Those are people completely irrelevant to the scene, we don't work with them, they don't contribute to our culture, we're not responsible for their actions, we're not even affected by their actions (no, being tweeted at is not being affected). Not addressing them is the best course of action. Further I don't real…

> I fail to see what "rising up" against an army of random alt accounts on Twitter would have accomplished.

To let women know that they will be supported when speaking out against sexism. To let everybody know we defend our own.

> I don't really see evidence of this having caused more fear among women in tech.

Keep looking, then. I've seen plenty of it.

> And it turned out she had a history of doing such shockingly antagonistic things to anyone who wasn't black and/or a woman.

That claim has been debunked: http://www.technologywoman.com/2013/03/24/digging-beneath-th...

> She handled the situation in a shockingly ridiculous way.

That's a matter of perspective. I hope that I would have handled it differently. But given the thousand-paper-cuts thing, I can't say that I would have. She didn't fire the one guy who got axed. The guys making the jokes are not being discussed by name. All she did was post a conference pic and a summary of what they said in public. I'm not seeing anything particularly horrible. The one negative outcome for the one guy, firing, could have come just as well if she'd complained to his boss.

> A good number of the talks at the con were given by women.

And you know why? In good portion because of the hard work of the people you anonymously denigrate here. Because of decades of effort to make tech, and everything else, less of an old boys' club. Because however much you scoff as systemic misogyny currently, you don't have to go back far in time to see something that even you will recognize as systemic misogyny. That you don't see it now could mean you are incredibly perceptive. Or it could mean you are just like the guys back then who couldn't see the systemic misogyny that benefited them.

> Less unsubstantiated political BS, more meritocracy.

Well when you get around to understanding why a sexually charged environment keeps women of merit out of tech, drop me a line. Then maybe you'll be ready to do something to further the meritocracy you're seeking.

Re: $10,000 Raised for PyLadies at PyCon 2013

#180

Post by gcb0 »

pekk wrote: post #92
gcb0 wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

and promoted sexism, twice. affirmative action is wrong. always. that's the reason racism/sexism/etc exist in the first place. everyone who feels superior donating to those causes are misguided egoistics.

Affirmative action is not the reason racism exists. For example, slavery was a violently institutionalized form of racism. I am pretty sure slavery did not begin due to affirmative action.

Today, it is.

Also, if you want to sound smart, do the work. Excluding usa, most forms of slavery thought history was not based on skin color.

But, yeah, rest of the world, whatever.

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