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Don't be the out of touch Kung Fu master

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Re: Don't be the out of touch Kung Fu master

#171

Post by owebmaster »

skydhash wrote: post #162
N_Lens wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

AI amplifies existing process. For people without sufficient clarity I imagine it amplifies that lack of clarity, which is where it is factually unproductive while it still ‘seems’ to be productive (producing slop). At the end of the day, LLMs are still tools.

> For people without sufficient clarity I imagine it amplifies that lack of clarity, which is where it is factually unproductive while it still ‘seem’ to be productive Convenient way of saying "you're holding it wrong".

Then when asked for examples of what they built using AI, what they have to show is boring slop worse than "git cloning" a mature project.

Re: Don't be the out of touch Kung Fu master

#172

Post by skydhash »

_zoltan_ wrote: post #97
turpentine wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We are going from the era of manual, line-by-line mental model transcription to one where software engineers can focus on data structures, software architecture and algorithms. Focusing on data structures, architecture and algorithms is what competency in programming has looked like since forever. Building systems out of smaller pieces gets you there. If your complaint above is that you were struggling with syntax…

> Focusing on data structures, architecture and algorithms is what competency in programming has looked like since forever yes, being able to bang out leetcode hard from head on an interview on paper matters so much... oh wait. it does not. in the real world, outside of interview questions, it hardly matters. when it comes there, I'll optimizite it, but getting the first system up and running in a way I want is way m…

> yes, being able to bang out leetcode hard from head on an interview on paper matters so much... oh wait. it does not.

That's about reciting standard data structures like stack and queues. I think parent is talking more about the design of primitives for the domain of the software. That requires creativity and insight.

Re: Don't be the out of touch Kung Fu master

#173

Post by csallen »

anonzzzies wrote: post #160
skrebbel wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> because AI is so counterproductive while feeling the opposite Wow that resonated by a scary amount.

Again I don't get what people on HN are doing? Our client wants something: I mumble in my phone what they want, with some spec docs we had / made by mumbling in our phones: a working system comes out, we test it with our client, we fix. We sign a SLA, get paid 100k, a few weeks have passed. I mean, we should not measure everything in money, but for lack of a better measure for productivity, I cannot see how anyone fi…

Don't underestimate the power of motivated reasoning. Certain people don't like AI coding for various ideological reasons, and so they will, not coincidentally, consistently fail to find it productive or helpful.

Re: Don't be the out of touch Kung Fu master

#174

Post by JackMorgan »

alexashka wrote: post #143
lowkeyokay wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I sense sarcasm. But I think you misinterpreted the parent’s point. I read it as: yes, Carmack has made huge contributions but, has not publicly released anything noteworthy since the advent of AI coding. Of course that doesn’t mean he won’t, just that so far nothing he released has backed up his statement.

Can you imagine a football fan going up to Ronaldo and saying hey, I saw an interview you did last week - I think you may be lost in the weeds there with your training regimen and outlook. I want to let you know - I remain a skeptic. I mean, when you start scoring goals like you did 5 years ago Ronaldo, but until then, I remain a skeptic about that training regimen. As for misinterpreting - maybe you're misinterpreti…

Do you believe a 50 year old software engineer is mentally no longer able to work?

Should they be forced to sit back and tell stories of the good old days because their knees are blown out?

Do you believe that one of the greatest living programmers is so washed up at 50 that _even with the greatest LLM tools_ cannot ship something publicly in four years to back up his claims?

Re: Don't be the out of touch Kung Fu master

#175

Post by Ekaros »

glimshe wrote: post #3

We are going from the era of manual, line-by-line mental model transcription to one where software engineers can focus on data structures, software architecture and algorithms. I love being able to quickly bring out the program that is already running in my head without having to worry about the grind of typing it into a format that the compiler understands. Dealing with API names. Syntax. Language quirks. Library go…

How can you have proper real understanding of data structures and algorithms without at same time having line-by-line mental model?

Or do you blindly trust what machine tells you at whatever time you are communicating with it?

Architecture I might give not needing line-by-line model. But I really doubt the same with data structures and algorithms. Those are in the end build from lines.

Re: Don't be the out of touch Kung Fu master

#176

Post by hermitcrab »

tkel wrote: post #29

Ironically, this post comes off as out of touch. The purpose of the various martial arts isn't just to win in a life-or-death brawl or murder people as efficiently as possible. Similarly, the point of programming isn't just to generate as much code as possible, or only to be more "productive".

Japanese martial arts generally come in 2 forms. -do (the way) and -jitsu (the art). -do forms are about self improvement, -jitsu forms are about effectiveness. You can see this with judo and jujitsu. Carmac is clearly aware of this difference as he says:

"We aren’t there yet, but carefully writing code completely by hand is moving from a -jitsu to a -do. "

IIRC Carmac has done judo (I'm not sure to what level).

Re: Don't be the out of touch Kung Fu master

#177

Post by sandworm101 »

anonzzzies wrote: post #160
skrebbel wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> because AI is so counterproductive while feeling the opposite Wow that resonated by a scary amount.

Again I don't get what people on HN are doing? Our client wants something: I mumble in my phone what they want, with some spec docs we had / made by mumbling in our phones: a working system comes out, we test it with our client, we fix. We sign a SLA, get paid 100k, a few weeks have passed. I mean, we should not measure everything in money, but for lack of a better measure for productivity, I cannot see how anyone fi…

Ya, AI is very good at generating number, be that code for software, images for ads, or banal prose for company blogs. AI not so good at growing corn, cooking eggs, biulding houses, running fiber, treating disease, changing brake pads, loading a truck... or any of the other millions of physical-world jobs on which the economy is biult.

If you company is all about creating things that go on the internet, sure, AI is your thing. But for most companies the internet is a communications tool rather than a product. Those companies are not seeing the claimed productivity gains.

Re: Don't be the out of touch Kung Fu master

#178

Post by N_Lens »

skydhash wrote: post #162
N_Lens wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

AI amplifies existing process. For people without sufficient clarity I imagine it amplifies that lack of clarity, which is where it is factually unproductive while it still ‘seems’ to be productive (producing slop). At the end of the day, LLMs are still tools.

> For people without sufficient clarity I imagine it amplifies that lack of clarity, which is where it is factually unproductive while it still ‘seem’ to be productive Convenient way of saying "you're holding it wrong".

Yes, that's what I'm saying.

Re: Don't be the out of touch Kung Fu master

#179

Post by skydhash »

fragmede wrote: post #80
acedTrex wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

ya i find all LLM output to be incredibly boring and unskillful, I can ship vibe bugs fast with the best of them but it brings me no joy. I'll never let myself be left behind but the joy professionally of writing quality software is 100% gone.

The possibility to have an agent implement every little thing that comes up in your mind as you're building doesn't spark the tiniest bit of joy? Previously, "ooh it would be cool if" had to answer to "yeah but it'll take too long". Now, it's more like, "how important is that really ?" to stupid ideas that never would have seen the light of day before.

> "ooh it would be cool if" had to answer to "yeah but it'll take too long". Now, it's more like, "how important is that really?" to stupid ideas that never would have seen the light of day before.

My answer was it to "ooh it would be cool if" has always to build a PoC of the thing or a MVP, then I can flesh it out when I need more features. Sometimes a web app can be a single PHP script, and a cli command can be as simple as a single file C program. Or using tkinter with python for GUI.

The answer to "ooh it would be cool if I can travel fast" is not "yeah but it'll take too long to build a car". It's "let's build a kick scooter first".

Re: Don't be the out of touch Kung Fu master

#180

Post by omnicognate »

2muchcoffeeman wrote: post #144
_zoltan_ wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

coding for the sake of coding is, well, dumb.

The number of down votes the parent comment has seems to me like a litmus test of people who will use AI and those that are just critical of it. I have my reservations about AI but so far I’ve found ways to make me faster. So I’ll continue to use it but make sure to review my usage regularly.

The number of downvotes reflects the fact that people don't consider just calling something "dumb" a worthwhile contribution to the discussion.
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