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Illinois just passed a law that puts Linux on the hook for age verification

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Re: Illinois just passed a law that puts Linux on the hook for age verification

#171
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is a technical ratchet. Once you accept part of the implementation it will never be undone, more will be added.

Literally a slippery slope argument

It's a fallacy when there is no cause and effect for each step. This, however states the steps.

Re: Illinois just passed a law that puts Linux on the hook for age verification

#172
post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the contrary in my experience once a legislature passes a bill to "fix" a particular problem they consider it fixed and don't update it for at least 20 years.

it depends on whether or not there's someone who sees it as a crusade (rare), sees it as a way to get political clout (very common) and/or is getting a lot of lobbying money (extremely common [1]). see, for eg, the anti-trans bills that are being passed this is the same rhetorical and political strategy, that there are 'dangerous' people who will exploit your children so please vote for me, the person who cares the m…

What is the connection to “anti-trans bills”?

Re: Illinois just passed a law that puts Linux on the hook for age verification

#173
post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am in the USA, but I literally cannot comply because by design it is not possible for me to ship changes without the international maintainer team agreeing to them. And Illinois legislators have no power over them. Also, we are not a company. We are an independent community owned project. Our code is free speech and I will burn the world down to defend that right. Truly I dare someone to try to take me to court ove…

There are a lot of remedies available to a court with respect to a recalcitrant party, ranging from an injunction to remove your product from the market to fines and imprisonment. Again, speak with your attorney. Do not try to "hack the law" yourself; many who have tried have regretted it later.

[deleted]

Re: Illinois just passed a law that puts Linux on the hook for age verification

#174
post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am in the USA, but I literally cannot comply because by design it is not possible for me to ship changes without the international maintainer team agreeing to them. And Illinois legislators have no power over them. Also, we are not a company. We are an independent community owned project. Our code is free speech and I will burn the world down to defend that right. Truly I dare someone to try to take me to court ove…

There are a lot of remedies available to a court with respect to a recalcitrant party, ranging from an injunction to remove your product from the market to fines and imprisonment. Again, speak with your attorney. Do not try to "hack the law" yourself; many who have tried have regretted it later.

Or maybe we're at the point where we'll go to prison because of unjust laws.

Re: Illinois just passed a law that puts Linux on the hook for age verification

#175
post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I respect your principled stance on one hand, while on the other I’m amazed that someone as successful as you hasn’t learned that logic doesn’t dictate how governments work. Don’t make a target of yourself, there are countless ways for a government to make your life miserable.

I will never show fear to tech-illiterate bullies trying to compromise constitutionally protected rights. That is how freedoms get quietly lost. Users need to see that the people in positions of influence in FOSS projects they trust are not afraid of this bullshit. I -hope- someone is stupid enough to take a case like this to court so we can establish some much needed case law here. These overreaches deserve to be co…

> I will never show fear

"never show fear" and "never engage intelligence" are two different things. Understand what people will do in response to your actions, and act accordingly to achieve the outcomes you want. Please by all means fight the law, and do so intelligently in a way that will actually help.

Re: Illinois just passed a law that puts Linux on the hook for age verification

#176
post #132
post #58

I feel like all of these laws are being designed backwards. Content providers, like MPAA films, should have to identify what sort of content they are providing. Then I can give my kids a device configured to allow some or all of that at my discretion. Requiring my kids' devices to advertise their age (or their age "bucket", as if that was a meaningful difference) to protect them is not doing me or my kids any favors.

I'm now pretty convinced that this is the best argument for persuading non-technical and non-internet-privacy minded people why this is a problem. It's hard to explain all the technical factors that make it impossible to implement without compromising privacy... but it's pretty easy to get them to understand the real intent. If you start them thinking through what mechanisms would make sense _if_ the original premise…

> "everyone must provide their ID so we can verify their age"

but that's not this law. This law requires self-declaration by whoever creates the accounts on the device.

Re: Illinois just passed a law that puts Linux on the hook for age verification

#177
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is a technical ratchet. Once you accept part of the implementation it will never be undone, more will be added.

Stronger: Once you accept their right to ask , then you open the door to their right to a truthful answer, and thus to a verified answer.

Hasn’t the right to ask existed since the invention of consent laws?

The state being able demand a persons age, and gate their behaviour based on that, has existed for hundreds of years so far. During that entire time the requirement to be truthful has also existed otherwise the laws would be meaningless.

All that’s changing now, is figuring out how that extends into the digital realm. I personally find the argument that the digital realm is somehow special compared to the physical realm, and thus certain laws simply shouldn’t apply when “done on a computer”, difficult to reconcile.

Re: Illinois just passed a law that puts Linux on the hook for age verification

#178
I think this is a bad thing overall, but if the OS is responsible for reporting my age, that means I get to pick my own age... I'll take what I can get.

Some states will pass laws that companies cannot show advertisements to minors. So...

I think I'm about to become a bit of a minor myself, at least whenever it serves my interests.

Re: Illinois just passed a law that puts Linux on the hook for age verification

#179
post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No need to hack the law. Our FOSS code is constitutionally protected free speech and I would defend on those grounds. The technical design of the project just makes it so no one can force changes on the distro unwanted by the maintainer team regardless of any courtroom outcomes. Like, what if someone made a law that said Bitcoin nodes must KYC? They could make the law I guess, and the international network operators…

> Our FOSS code is constitutionally protected free speech and I would defend on those grounds. You have precisely zero additional speech rights as a FOSS project than any other organization has. If "free speech" was a valid defense for you, then Meta would be doing the same. > The technical design of the project just makes it so no one can force changes on the distro unwanted by the maintainer team regardless of any…

> Being unable to comply is not a valid legal defense.

Sure it is. Lawyers even have a pithy Latin maxim about it: lex non cogit ad impossibilia.

Re: Illinois just passed a law that puts Linux on the hook for age verification

#180
post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having the ability to identify who is watching or saying what on the internet would be immensely useful to the government; the justifications are really meaningless. Anti-money-laundering is a comparable field, as all the AML regulations and laws are ineffective at identifying money launderers, but they're wonderful for verifying (auditing and prosecuting) tax compliance.

> Anti-money-laundering is a comparable field, as all the AML regulations and laws are ineffective at identifying money launderers, but they're wonderful for verifying (auditing and prosecuting) tax compliance. As someone who’s implemented AML, KYC, and tax reporting functions in a bank. I think you would be very surprised at how shit they are for tax auditing at scale. Unless the tax man is specifically auditing you…

Criminals don't have to "recruit and pay huge numbers of naive bank customers"; in my jurisdiction, they just walk into a casino with a few hundred thousand dollars, exchange for chips, pretend to gamble for an hour, then exchange the chips for cash, and walk out with a nice receipt. There're more complex schemes involving real estate and other mediums too.
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