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Physicists Solve a Muon Mystery. Now, Old Results Don't Add Up

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171–180 of 187 posts

Re: Physicists Solve a Muon Mystery. Now, Old Results Don't Add Up

#171

This “data driven” science approach sure looks like empiricism from a distance. What am I missing?

Out of my depth really, but I believe the "data driven" approach probably refers to some sort of renormalization. What renormalization does is your theory produces all sort of infinities but you know there is mechanism that eliminates them but your theory is not able to calculate how that happens and the exact degree so you go out look at real numbers and then tweak your model to predict the correct values . I may be…

The data-driven approach is referring to a more general technique --- it's a less fancy concept than renormalization, which only comes up when doing full-blown relativistic quantum field theory. Specifically, it refers to the use of a couple of well-grounded mathematical tricks to sidestep doing a from-first-principles calculation by, effectively, translating the results of different measurements into a prediction for something new (in this case, a quantity that contributes to the calculation of the magnetic moment).

In non-relativistic quantum mechanics, there is the concept of the "wavefunction," from which you can predict the results of measurements of a particle/system. But in most real-world scenarios, you can't actually compute the wavefunction, and so naively you can't make any predictions. But there is something called the "optical theorem," which relates a single evaluation of the wavefunction to a scattering cross-section, which is something that can be measured. If you're familiar with complex analysis, there is also the "residue theorem" which allows you relate individual function values with integrals of the function in the complex plane. Basically, you can combine those two relations to translate kind one integral (which you need to compute) into a different integral (which can be measured).

This is what was done here --- just instead of a simple QM wavefunction, the relevant concept is called a "vacuum polarization function."

Re: Physicists Solve a Muon Mystery. Now, Old Results Don't Add Up

#172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, but you can only solve a problem that you are aware of. My concern here is about the unknown unknowns. The task at hand is exceedingly complex and requires extreme precision, with many unknown variables... And the people solving the problems have conflicting interests as they are paid hourly. Even if there are bonuses, all the bonuses would be given on the basis of solving known problems. There is literally zer…

Precision results are usually blinded, so it's not as if scientists can just rejigger the calculation if it's giving an implausible result; once the result has been unblinded, the calculation is finished. The physicists working on these experiments are therefore extremely motivated to quantify all potentially non-negligible sources of systemic error beforehand. That said, the issue in this case is almost certainly sy…

To be fair, sometimes the blinding is a piece of duct tape over the display on a piece of fancy OTS industrial equipment. Though we needed to poke at it occasionally, so we needed a duct tape flap we could lift up every now and then rather than just a bare piece. I forget if I made ours or if C made it, but I remember our little blinding flap fondly.

(This is more common than you'd think.)

Re: Physicists Solve a Muon Mystery. Now, Old Results Don't Add Up

#173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The difference is that we have theorerically sound formation scenarious for black holes under very broad conditions, and we have absolutely no model for a formation scenario of such an exotic dark star.

Observations keep poking holes in those hypotheses (I’m not sure they even count as theories). We keep finding black holes with anomalous masses, or black holes that formed too early. Part of the problem is that we have very little observational data. But another big problem is that our best ideas, based on general relativity are known to be incompatible with quantum mechanics.

My comment was specifically about those alternative "dark stars" hypothesis. Is there one with a formation scenario?

Re: Physicists Solve a Muon Mystery. Now, Old Results Don't Add Up

#174

9 years of philosophy and I'm over platonic realism and reading contemporary philosophy of science. The thing is, we are wrong, but this stuff is useful to make predictions. Everyone knows about the copernican revolution. But when it first happened, the old models(earth at the center of the solar system) were more accurate at predicting where the plenets would be. Scientists pragmatically spend their time doing best…

The difference with the Copernican stuff is that you can fly a satellite (e.g. Voyager) to the edge of the solar system, look back, and see the planets orbiting the sun. There is no sane way to put the earth in the center once you do that. If I do a push up the Earth moves beneath me but no reasonable person says I'm pushing the Earth away. Hence I feel heliocentrism is simply an observable fact. It's not a mathemati…

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Re: Physicists Solve a Muon Mystery. Now, Old Results Don't Add Up

#175
post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your "scientific method" can only correct the "mistakes" as long as economics allows it. A wrong belief held "scientifically" will go on and on if there is sufficient economic incentives to make it go on....And it is the "true believers" of science that provides such economic incentives..! So much for celebration! Sure this "Muon mystery" that no one cares about financially could be corrected without much effort. May…

I don't understand this argument. Even ancient Greek philosophers could do their time's science because their economy allowed them to have time to think and food to eat and didn't have to go working in the fields. And they passed on their fair share of wrong beliefs that have been debunked only in the last few centuries. It's in the nature of being humans. Or God created the universe and one is God and knows exactly…

>Greek philosophers could do their time's science because their economy allowed them to have time to think and food to eat and didn't have to go working in the fields. And they passed on their fair share of wrong beliefs that have been debunked only in the last few centuries.

Sure, it would have been much worse if only a select few had the privilege. Like if the king "funded" only those who said/stamped the things the king wanted as "scientific"...

Re: Physicists Solve a Muon Mystery. Now, Old Results Don't Add Up

#176
post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The difference with the Copernican stuff is that you can fly a satellite (e.g. Voyager) to the edge of the solar system, look back, and see the planets orbiting the sun. Or you can put the satellite in the back of a truck and back the truck out of your garage and see the sun orbiting the earth. Yet it remains sane to put anywhere in the center depending on your context.

If you have a reasonable grasp of Newtonian gravity you would also be unable to conclude that. A wrestler flailing a skinny guy around, from the POV of the skinny guy, is still definitely not the skinny guy flailing the wrestler about. I don't see what's to argue here. Given all facts, then there is no POV that results in the conclusion the sun goes round the earth. Just like how there's no placement of the camera th…

I agree with the example of human agents because we can acknowledge concepts like will, choice, agency, etc. But none of those ideas are present in Newton's laws of motions.

Re: Physicists Solve a Muon Mystery. Now, Old Results Don't Add Up

#177
post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Hence I feel heliocentrism is simply an observable fact. It isn't. You can easily define a coordinate system for the universe in which the earth is the center. Heliocentrism just makes some approximate computations easier because the sun is so heavy. Thus in heliocentrism, the orbits of the planets are approximately ellipses (near-circles) around the sun, while in a geocentric model, the orbits have more complicate…

>both the sun and the planet move around a common center which is near to the sun. Within the sun, with one exception.

> Within the sun, with one exception.

OK, I admit that I never did the actual calculations, but only knew this property of the formulas. :-)

Re: Physicists Solve a Muon Mystery. Now, Old Results Don't Add Up

#178
post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The more you know, the more you realize you don’t know." — Aristotle

The more you know, the more you realize you don’t know to whom you should ascribe a quote.

@shusaku> "The more you know, the more you realize you don’t know to whom you should ascribe a quote."

Well, so far I see variants of this particular quote from Aristotle, Einstein, and Voltaire. Someone else probably said it earlier than any of 'em probably, but I honestly don't care enough to dig any deeper than this. Besides, half the time I've dug deeper into Mark Twain or Albert Einstein quotes (just for a couple really common examples) I find that they're attributed with saying a thing they never actually said anyhow, so... :shrug:

https://motivane.com/quote/more-you-know-more-you-dont-know/

https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/620163-the-more-i-learn-the...

https://wiseopinions.substack.com/p/voltaires-paradox-about-...

Re: Physicists Solve a Muon Mystery. Now, Old Results Don't Add Up

#179
post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you have a reasonable grasp of Newtonian gravity you would also be unable to conclude that. A wrestler flailing a skinny guy around, from the POV of the skinny guy, is still definitely not the skinny guy flailing the wrestler about. I don't see what's to argue here. Given all facts, then there is no POV that results in the conclusion the sun goes round the earth. Just like how there's no placement of the camera th…

I agree with the example of human agents because we can acknowledge concepts like will, choice, agency, etc. But none of those ideas are present in Newton's laws of motions.

Will, choice, and agency are unnecessary for explaining the example. It can be described simply by the forces exerted. The locations of the observers or sensing equipment matter little in this case, though they do become problematic when attempting discern whether heliocentric model fits unaided observations from a planetary surface.

Re: Physicists Solve a Muon Mystery. Now, Old Results Don't Add Up

#180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Observations keep poking holes in those hypotheses (I’m not sure they even count as theories). We keep finding black holes with anomalous masses, or black holes that formed too early. Part of the problem is that we have very little observational data. But another big problem is that our best ideas, based on general relativity are known to be incompatible with quantum mechanics.

My comment was specifically about those alternative "dark stars" hypothesis. Is there one with a formation scenario?

That's gated by a constructivist replacement for general relativity and a deeper understanding of heavy quarks. Science marches on.
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