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LLM Usage in Debian: Three Proposals

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171–180 of 228 posts

Re: LLM Usage in Debian: Three Proposals

#171
post #18

Don't misinterpret this link as representing a final decision. It's actually three separate proposals which will be debated and then voted on. Proposal A is "expressly forbid any contributions to Debian written with the use or assistance of large language models (LLMs) or other generative AI tools." Proposal B is "The Debian project allows AI-assisted contributions (partially or fully generated by an LLM), provided t…

while my heart lean heavily toward A, this would serverly limit Debian contribution and would rely on contributor honesty. It might be dismissed as an attempt to gatekeep contribution. But the issue of the human cost on the receiving end of the contribution and how sophisticated attack vector it could potentially be give me some concerns about long term quality.

B being the more pragmatic, despite the (valid) code licensing concerns. but could leave some very openly LLM driven project room to contribute package.

C as a middle ground would not satisfy any party and would only push back the resolution of the status quo.

Re: LLM Usage in Debian: Three Proposals

#172
post #118

From Proposal A: > LLM output has very unclear legal status: it may be possible to copyright on its own merits, or not; it may be affected by all of the licenses and copyrights in the training data, or not. Debian Policy and the DFSG require absolute clarity for licensing and copyright[1][2]. Software and other contributions written conventionally by humans with unclear copyright or license status are not allowed in…

> How can a contributer know if LLM output includes "pre-existing copyrighted materials (including pre-existing code licensed as free software) authored or owned by third parties"?

I use an LLM to write code, but 90% of that usage is code review which raises suggestions or fixes which I go and implement myself. Occasionally I also have the LLM complete a single function that I know it will do correctly because the requirements are all present and unambiguous. Because the content of the function is all based on the unique context of my codebase, it has about the same chance of reproducing someone else's code that I have, nearly zero.

Under those circumstances, I'd be comfortable taking the responsibility that the code is free of legal issues. The LLM assisted review also would make me more confident of the quality of the code and capable of explaining it and justifying it.

This is vastly different from a scenario where a developer has an agent coordinate and write most of the content. There are many different ways to use LLMs and it seems like these policies need to take them into consideration. Developer responsibility for the legality/quality of the code should be no different than non-assisted code, but they could also give examples of safe and beneficial LLM use.

Re: LLM Usage in Debian: Three Proposals

#173

> A LLM (...) merely produces syntactically likely combinations of the training data While doesn't matter much in the rest of the policy, this is a common misconception among AI skeptics. It is not the case for a long time (since RL is used heavily in the training) and a LLM may go beyond its training data.

I would like to offer this comment from three days ago as counterpoint: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49013694

What does that prove? That AIs are not RLd for counting letters in texts? Do you doubt that they could excel at it with only synthetic data?

Re: LLM Usage in Debian: Three Proposals

#174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Supervised learning and reinforcement learning are mathematically distinct. Supervised pre-training as you said maximizes the likelihood of a token sequence. RL optimizes a policy against an external reward signal or execution environment. For example, RL evaluates code against runtime execution/unit tests/proof checkers (e.g lean). Models learn new strategies and are able to produce novel code if trained in an RL en…

I don‘t understand what you mean. Supervised learning is reinforcement learning, while not all reinforcement learning is supervised learning (e.g unsupervised learning is also reinforcement learning; i.e. reinforcement learning with unlabelled data). Like you said, you can have reinforcement learning which doesn’t use training data. But that is not what my parent said. What they said is: since RL is used heavily in t…

that's not how the terminology is typical used, even if it makes literal sense

Re: LLM Usage in Debian: Three Proposals

#176
Whatever the decision is today, it's going to become utterly moot within a decade or so.

Think about how far we've come over the past three years. Programming with AI in ten years will be utterly unfathomable. It would be like showing Fable 5 to someone a decade ago. It will be unbelievable.

In twenty years, programming by hand might be somewhat akin to writing assembly today: a skill that a limited number of programmers understand, and fewer still actively practise. Writing code by hand will become the new "I want to be close to the metal."

Perhaps by 2050, the concept of a Linux "distro" will be obsolete, replaced by a GPL-licensed local AI that just directly assembles everything from scratch to meet your exact specifications. Instead of relying on a predefined package manager, it traverses a distributed network of trust to find suitable candidate parts, downloading and verifying every line of source code before compiling it all locally. Trust would be rooted in the local AI's ability to understand and evaluate it, meaning that what replaces the distro are the groups competing for the best models.

Perhaps by 2070, nobody even writes or distributes code any more. The future kernel and web browser aren't code, they're descriptions of verifiable intent. A software project is really an extremely detailed description of what the software is meant to do. Your local GPL-licensed AI would decide how to write, assemble, patch, optimise, and integrate it for your hardware and your threat model. That would also blur the distinction between kernels, operating systems, and applications. The AI doesn't construct a computing environment as we know it today with discrete applications. It builds a coherent system that satisfies all requirements, rebuilding parts whenever your priorities change.

Downloading compiled code? Implicitly trusting someone else's source code? These will become the things people only do on hardware that is sufficiently air-gapped from any outside influence.

Re: LLM Usage in Debian: Three Proposals

#177
post #43
post #18

Don't misinterpret this link as representing a final decision. It's actually three separate proposals which will be debated and then voted on. Proposal A is "expressly forbid any contributions to Debian written with the use or assistance of large language models (LLMs) or other generative AI tools." Proposal B is "The Debian project allows AI-assisted contributions (partially or fully generated by an LLM), provided t…

There actually seem to be 4 separate proposals right now, maybe another was just added? Proposal D is "Accept AI contributions for Debian specific work"

Wait, can we have a vote to not link HN contributions to dynamic pages!

Re: LLM Usage in Debian: Three Proposals

#178

Proposals like these are arrogant and obnoxious. You aren’t going to tell me what tools I can use.

No, but they are going to tell you what's acceptable if you want to contribute to their project, and kick you out if they find you broke the rules. Projects have always had their rules you had to follow if you wanted to participate.

I simply don't accept that this type of project rule has any validity. It's like telling me what editor I can use, or that I can't use Google to search for programming tips, or that I can only use an electric car to drive to the office.

Re: LLM Usage in Debian: Three Proposals

#179
post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Notable are the endorsements, which are balanced over all three options... I don't think this is notable. The process requires five seconders, so you're just seeing the set of people who seconded asynchronously before there were obviously enough that others didn't bother. The culture is to avoid unnecessary noise and leave it for the vote.

A bit of topic, but does the word "seconded" still work when five are required? Isn't there a more generic term?

n’th’ed?

Re: LLM Usage in Debian: Three Proposals

#180

I find it ironic that so many OSS projects are or are considering banning LLM usage. After all, without OSS, LLMs would never have been this good at coding. Shouldn't OSS be the first to benefit? Or should OSS be a bedrock of carefully curated code untouched by AI slop?

> Shouldn't OSS be the first to benefit?

OSS projects have in many cases been the first to be hurt by LLMs.

As you note, LLMs are heavily trained on OSS code. This makes them very good at "license-washing" copyleft code in to a decidedly-not-cleanroom reimplementation which is different enough at first glance that it would be hard to stop without a legal battle most OSS projects could not even dream of.

Plenty of ink has also been spilled on how LLMs have led to a significant increase in administrative workload for OSS maintainers by allowing users to produce a high volume of both bug reports and pull requests that are likely to be of varying quality or adherence to project standards but unlike a new human contributor will never develop in to a better community member. It's infinite newbies forever, a computer-generated Eternal September.

On top of all that, as noted in the Debian proposal the companies training these LLMs have proven themselves to have no shame or concern for the resources of others in the process of gathering data, inefficiently crawling every single URL they can find and nowadays even using their own models to generate new potential URLs that have never existed, in ways specifically designed to make filtering, rate limiting, or blocking the traffic altogether as hard as possible while performing what are often some of the most resource-expensive requests. These tactics have imposed substantial real costs on basically everyone who hosts their own infrastructure as well as community hosting projects, without even getting in to the hardware-related cost increases every single one of us have experienced.

LLMs have gone to a lot of OSS projects, stolen their code, beat up their maintainers, and emptied their wallets. Now the LLM people are coming by wanting big projects to work with them, "for their security" like a protection racket.

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