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I wanted a clock that never needed setting. Things escalated

arstechnica.com

171–180 of 180 posts

Re: I wanted a clock that never needed setting. Things escalated

#171

The author's primary lament is clocks that cannot withstand power flickers , yet every sub-$10 mains voltage clock from Walmart and Target that I've ever seen will take a 9V battery to make them resilient against such power interruptions. Might want to flip the clock over and check for a battery door before starting next time.

That might do to keep it within a minute during power loss, and maybe that's good enough for most people. But if you really want to be worry-free you need something more high tech.

It would be worth it for me not to have to touch it twice a year for DST.

Re: I wanted a clock that never needed setting. Things escalated

#172

While diving deep into DCF77, I noticed there is something similar for the US: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WWV_(radio_station) It just doesn't seem to get used that much, I suppose?

The shortwave WWV, not so much, except to check if your shortwave radio is working. Canada's shortwave CHU was shut down last month. The 60 kHz WWVB, yes. Plenty of cheap wall clocks have "atomic time" as it is marketed over here, meaning it has a radio receiver. You can pick one up at the grocery store. It depends on where you live if it actually works though. Where I live it works pretty well, but I've heard it doe…

I think both WWV and WWVB were on the chopping block a few years ago, because the government decided it wasn't worth the $100,000 per year to keep them running. Thankfully that decision was overturned.

Re: I wanted a clock that never needed setting. Things escalated

#173
post #19

It's a clock. Does it really have to have remote updating, a command line interface, an Internet connection, and HomeKit integration? That's too IoT. I have three La Crosse clocks that run off the NIST time signal out of Boulder, CO, and need their AA battery replaced maybe once a year. The real challenge is running such a thing on a small battery for a year. I once made a small clock that displayed "A LITTLE AFTER S…

I feel like if you were gonna overthink this, you could’ve done something really cute and clever. Like an AI that stares at the window and figures out which angle the sun is coming in, then makes a determination on what time it must be. Then while it’s not sunny or can’t figure it out, it has dead reckoning, but it’s constantly looking at angles of shadows that determine if the time has drifted.

Coming soon, the AI powered sundial.

Re: I wanted a clock that never needed setting. Things escalated

#174

I can't decide how I feel about this article. On one hand, it's great. It's great that the author wanted to get something done, and thanks to the marvels of modern tech, they could do it with very little effort. But on the other hand... gosh , this was about the simplest software engineering challenge imaginable (toggle some I/O pins) and the simplest design task imaginable (make a featureless rectangular box). And t…

I have been stuck mentally on this article since it came out. Like, learning enough python to send the time to the display would still have made this a weekend project (I even went and found an adafruit 7 segment pi hat site and read their sample code). The effort is the interesting part to me, I want to read janky code that paints some kind a picture of someone learning. I don't care about finished, "polished" proje…

> I get that this is someone writing for money and I have no experience in that realm, and I'm sure conde nast prefers faster writing for something less in depth...

FWIW, Conde has no input on my work. Conde is the machine that provides HR and legal and payroll. Ars is a more or less self-contained world and since I got kicked into management a few years back, my output is my own. I wrote this up because this is how the project unfolded; no one assigned it to me or said I needed to write a July story to make a quota. It was fun. I did the write-up because it felt like an Ars-y thing to write up.

Definitely heard re: wanting to stumble through things and see the warts, but I have to disagree on the "learning enough python to make this work would still have been a weekend project." That's simply not true—if it were, I would have done it.

But it's not like the project didn't require effort. I put in considerable time on the parts that weren't python coding and CAD. Planning out and setting up the systemd service and timers, packaging up the service to ensure the thing was running under a properly isolated service account context, writing the installer, setting up the deployment pipeline—I didn't want to do the usual lazy thing I see so often and just take a barely functional mess of conflicting dependencies and shove them into a docker container and say "Here, this works on my computer, your problem now."

But like I said elsewhere in the thread, at 48 I'm old enough and ossified enough that I've come to accept that coding is simply not a skill I've got in me, and cranking out even something relatively simple like this project is going to be impossible for me without help. I've tried, too—I've bootstrapped myself through code academies, tried DIY courses, thrown myself into code-adjacent weekend projects, and otherwise tried to get to some level of mastery past "hello world," and I just kinda....suck. I bounced off of coding 30 years ago in college, I've bounced off it professionally for anything more than simple bash scripting, and I've bounced off of it in hobbies. I don't know if it's that my english major brain just doesn't do well in chopping problems down into small enough chunks or what—but I know after a lifetime that it's something I'm never going to be able to do.

That and bowling. Never scored over 100 in a game in my life, and likely at this point never will. Some things are just beyond my reach.

Re: I wanted a clock that never needed setting. Things escalated

#175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have been stuck mentally on this article since it came out. Like, learning enough python to send the time to the display would still have made this a weekend project (I even went and found an adafruit 7 segment pi hat site and read their sample code). The effort is the interesting part to me, I want to read janky code that paints some kind a picture of someone learning. I don't care about finished, "polished" proje…

> I get that this is someone writing for money and I have no experience in that realm, and I'm sure conde nast prefers faster writing for something less in depth... FWIW, Conde has no input on my work. Conde is the machine that provides HR and legal and payroll. Ars is a more or less self-contained world and since I got kicked into management a few years back, my output is my own. I wrote this up because this is how…

I appreciate you taking the time to respond to me. You were right to call out my criticism of Conde, and hearing more about what their involvement is with Ars does clear that up. My comment about "writing for money" was a poorly worded way for me to say that the writing itself is your career, and specifically writing about current tech. Current tech, unfortunately for my tastes and opinions, does involve a lot of AI now.

As to the rest of your points about not wanting to or not having the time to learn it, I understand. I went through many a tutorial before things started clicking with me. In fact, the only way I made python click for me was combining the abstract code WITH something physical like a screen or lights or buttons. I feel attached to the things I spent the time on because of the blood sweat and tears it took to make them work.

I also think reading the repo sent me into a rage because it looks like all the other claude written code, specifically the worst code I've had to implement from someone who did the whole "works on my computer, your problem now".

Re: I wanted a clock that never needed setting. Things escalated

#176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I get that this is someone writing for money and I have no experience in that realm, and I'm sure conde nast prefers faster writing for something less in depth... FWIW, Conde has no input on my work. Conde is the machine that provides HR and legal and payroll. Ars is a more or less self-contained world and since I got kicked into management a few years back, my output is my own. I wrote this up because this is how…

I appreciate you taking the time to respond to me. You were right to call out my criticism of Conde, and hearing more about what their involvement is with Ars does clear that up. My comment about "writing for money" was a poorly worded way for me to say that the writing itself is your career, and specifically writing about current tech. Current tech, unfortunately for my tastes and opinions, does involve a lot of AI…

Definitely heard re: the python code, yeah—it seems fine to my limited ability to review, and the functionality is there, and at least organizationally the structure makes sense to me, but I can't speak to its sophistication or whether or not it's how a skilled human might approach the same set of tasks.

I imagine it's somewhat the same boiling rage I feel when I watch youtube videos with obviously AI-written scripts, or read obviously AI-created written content in any area. I can't code, but do write and edit professionally, and the lackadaisical approach many people take with the form and presentation of their written words can be pretty damn offensive. (The responses I hear when I raise these objections are more or less the same ones I raise re: coding, though — "Well, I can't write, and the LLM says what I want to say way better than I could ever say it!" and so on.)

So it goes, I guess, heh.

Re: I wanted a clock that never needed setting. Things escalated

#177
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I did went GPS+ntp route. I have a few raspberry pis on my lan that serve NTP time. (you need more than one) Over the years I've experimented with various flavors. Right now I have a mix: 1) a pi3 with a gps hat and a battery backup for the pi itself. It uses ntp 127.127.20.20 for gps time, and 127.127.20.28 for PPS. The SMA antenna goes to receiver at the window 2) a pi3 with USB gps on a cable going to the window 3…

> I've also kind of wondered if GPS might be able to give you a time less accurately but quicker. Sometimes I look at the NMEA GPS output, and it sometimes doesn't have a position fix, but it does give out a time + week number No. Accurate time is one of the prerequisites for acquiring a position fix, and it's the one that's the easiest and fastest to obtain from the sky. Typically a receiver should be able to get ti…

I kind of think the ntp driver could handle this in an elegant way.

have a driver at 127.127.20.20 -> nmea time

make it normal stratum ntp, like stratum 1 or 2

doesn't give out the time unless there is a position fix (normal behavior)

and make another driver 127.127.20.99 -> nmea time without position fix

at the start, there is no time given at all

then you might get a time without a position fix

then you get a time with a position fix

then you might lose the position fix, but still give out a time.

make it a stratum 14 ntp server

Re: I wanted a clock that never needed setting. Things escalated

#178
post #168
post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Typically a receiver should be able to get time within seconds from cold start if there's enough sky visibility, and once it does it is as accurate as it gets regardless of position fix status. It'll be good to far better than seconds when it first gets a signal and will get more accurate (microseconds to nanoseconds) once it has a position fix because it can then compensate for the delays in the signal propagation…

I once researched how accurate GPS time is, and the answer is it's within 40 ns. Good luck finding a way to transmit that to your CPU that doesn't add a much larger delay.

I don't think delays are a problem for accuracy, as long as they're predictable.

Re: I wanted a clock that never needed setting. Things escalated

#179
post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Australia here, no radio time as far as I know. Lately I've been wondering whether accurate time could be derived from terrestrial digital TV signals.

You can set your clock with an iPhone app or a computer with a pair of speakers. https://timestation.pages.dev

Very cool, thanks. But this requires the iPhone/computer to have an internet connection. I'm thinking about alternatives to GPS for non-network continuous time synchronisation.

Re: I wanted a clock that never needed setting. Things escalated

#180
post #11

I’ve had a Phillips “atomic” alarm clock beside my bed for 23 years that just sets based on radio signal and auto restores if the power is lost, to which it has a backup 9v battery. There’s a time zone setting offset slider and a DST slider. I basically touch it twice a year, maybe another if I move time zones. I’ve only had to touch it for DST (never switched time zones). Takes me conservatively 10 seconds to find a…

Australia here, no radio time as far as I know. Lately I've been wondering whether accurate time could be derived from terrestrial digital TV signals.

When I read this a near week ago I immediately thought maybe try to get timing from the ripple currents sent for off / on peak items but reading some limited info decided probably not accurate enough.

Then I thought about the new digital power meters which display time and date and other info in a loop ... and ok I concluded, that's probably down to the mobile link for timing ... until I recalled where I live around the time when the telco's upgraded, the meter lost it's link for a few months - since the power drops out nearly every week the meter once power was restored still had time down to minutes correct.

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