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The Kimi K3 Moment

stephen.bochinski.dev

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Re: The Kimi K3 Moment

#171

Post by throw1234567891 »

boondongle wrote: post #64
nickysielicki wrote: post #33

Regardless of whether they achieved parity via distillation, or whether they got here via independently constructing a model from scratch, it was always going to end this way for the frontier American labs. Distillation “attacks” are not attacks. The frontier labs “distilled” all existing human written knowledge into their models, there was always going to be a second class lab that would distill that model into a ch…

Almost all markets depend on some form of regulation whether its as simple as "leave everyone alone but no stealing" or "every participant has to source every object through mountains of red tape." Thus far the US has not really chosen to go the Chinese rare-earth method yet. The problem with distillation attacks is the end result is everyone who is not doing them is going to deal with some kind of regulation whether…

American labs have ripped everything out of the internet. And now they cry someone else is “stealing” from them. Cry me a river.

Re: The Kimi K3 Moment

#172

Post by cuuupid »

petilon wrote: post #37
cuuupid wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The visa that would correlate to this is the O-1 visa 20k O-1 visas were issued last FY which was mostly under the Trump admin, up from 19.5k the previous FY under the Biden admin

No it is H-1B visa. Right out of the university it is hard to recognize extraordinary talent. People like Sundar Pichai were not recognized as extraordinary right out of the university, he had to start at the bottom and rise up the ranks.

This makes even less sense, Trump admin has been here for 1 year, the implication here is a university grad on H1-B in January would become a world class researcher capable of building a frontier model in <18mo

Re: The Kimi K3 Moment

#173

Post by reinitctxoffset »

gpm wrote: post #124
reinitctxoffset wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is distillation an "attack" but gigascraping the Internet to the point of crashing servers and everyone needs Cloudflare and Anubis now not an "attack"? I'm not aiming for a what about kickflip here: I'm saying we need to either agree on some rules or stop crying foul. Maybe the coherent legal theory is that neural networks and intellectual property don't interact. That would be weird but it would be consistent,…

I think you've basically got the legal theory. Training a neural network isn't prohibited by copyright law so if you can legally get your hands on something (e.g. by sending a GET request to someone with rights to serve the contents of their web page, or by buying a book) without signing a contract to not train on it, you can train on it. But the American AI companies only let you query their models if you first sign…

Eh, I think you've done a pretty good job summarizing a collection of settlements with a few narrow bench rulings for seasoning. I'm not sure I follow you to it being a coherent legal theory. Buying a book in a bookstore is sure legal, and excerpting from it for e.g. literary criticism is pretty settled. Downloading every torrent of all e-books ever is pretty clearly illegal (or at least it fuckin would be if I did it). Pretty sure like, multiple labs have been popped for that though.

Situation right now seems more like a fragile detente: if you got a Hill staffer drunk and hounded him long enough he'd probably be like "God damnit the market will fucking tank if we don't get these two IPOs out north of a trillion. And don't even get me started on how I'm going to sell Chinese AI to a Senate that still calls people Nipponesians when no one is looking. We're doing the best we can alright, get off my back man."

We have a situation, but it's not exactly A&M Records, Inc. v. Napster.

Re: The Kimi K3 Moment

#174

Post by SwellJoe »

jug wrote: post #108
SwellJoe wrote: post #8

I tried Kimi K3 on a task I've done with every other model I use regularly ( https://swelljoe.com/post/i-let-every-agent-implement-its-ow... ) and found it chewed a lot longer on the problem and ate up almost the entirety of a 5 hour usage limit on their $19 plan. I only have the $20 plan from OpenAI and the same task, with a lot of the same implementation details as Kimi Code, only took a few minutes and consumed al…

Yeah I've noted this behavior with best in class open weight models. They said K3 would have token efficiency improvements and I was hoping especially solving the thinking loop issue that plagued K2.x but even if this release helped somewhat, it looks like we still have a long way to go here... I'm not sure what's up here but I suppose lacking finetuning quality. What OpenAI in particular have done with reasoning eff…

Yeah, I'm finding I end up switching to Codex and GPT 5.6 a lot lately because I've either run out of Fable usage or Fable refused to do the task. Most recently it refused to work on a WiFi configuration UI for a robot. No idea why it thought that was related to security, biology, or some other sensitive topic. They've hobbled it with guardrails that are overzealous and now there's a big opening in the market. Fable may be the best, but if it won't do the job half the time, it stops being my go to model as I don't want to waste time only to find it refuses halfway through.

Re: The Kimi K3 Moment

#175

Post by throw1234567891 »

throe74844949 wrote: post #87
athrowaway3z wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>People infringe on Anthropics IP No. Authors do not infringe on IP when they read another's book, nor should the lumber company be able to dictate how I use planks and if I can resell them if i'm done with them. You're framing it as if the added value of the author or lumber company, awards them consideration when somebody uses the products to create more value. IP law was always a big mess, and these questions cros…

There are some quite interesting legal implications here. If Anthropic has IP over output produced by agents, do they somehow have legal rights to code and documents produced by such agents? This would demolish agent usage by corporations.

You say “if”. How did Anthropic obtain this IP, if the model serves ripped internet and all human knowledge?

Re: The Kimi K3 Moment

#176

Post by cuuupid »

arjie wrote: post #63
cuuupid wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The visa that would correlate to this is the O-1 visa 20k O-1 visas were issued last FY which was mostly under the Trump admin, up from 19.5k the previous FY under the Biden admin

This is why VC is actually hard. Everyone’s instinct is always “Man, once the company has demonstrated it’s awesome I would love to have been in the seed round”. The tendency to want “proven performers” is the default belief. When people demonstrate their capability thoroughly, the Chinese government takes away their passports. You’re not exactly going to get them here with an O-1.

This admin and its policies on immigrant visas have been around for 1 year and Biden was famously pro immigration

Re: The Kimi K3 Moment

#177

Post by j2j8 »

fmbb wrote: post #22
SwellJoe wrote: post #8

I tried Kimi K3 on a task I've done with every other model I use regularly ( https://swelljoe.com/post/i-let-every-agent-implement-its-ow... ) and found it chewed a lot longer on the problem and ate up almost the entirety of a 5 hour usage limit on their $19 plan. I only have the $20 plan from OpenAI and the same task, with a lot of the same implementation details as Kimi Code, only took a few minutes and consumed al…

Is Kimi K3 subsidized as hard as the other models out there?

From the end of the month it will be served profitably by other providers around the world, like Kimi K2.6

Re: The Kimi K3 Moment

#178

Post by gpm »

reinitctxoffset wrote: post #173
gpm wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you've basically got the legal theory. Training a neural network isn't prohibited by copyright law so if you can legally get your hands on something (e.g. by sending a GET request to someone with rights to serve the contents of their web page, or by buying a book) without signing a contract to not train on it, you can train on it. But the American AI companies only let you query their models if you first sign…

Eh, I think you've done a pretty good job summarizing a collection of settlements with a few narrow bench rulings for seasoning. I'm not sure I follow you to it being a coherent legal theory. Buying a book in a bookstore is sure legal, and excerpting from it for e.g. literary criticism is pretty settled. Downloading every torrent of all e-books ever is pretty clearly illegal (or at least it fuckin would be if I did i…

> Downloading every torrent of all e-books ever is pretty clearly illegal (or at least it fuckin would be if I did it). Pretty sure like, multiple labs have been popped for that though.

Oh it is, and at least anthropic has paid $1.5 billion and deleted there torrented copies and not released any models derived from them as a consequence.

The thing is it turns out to be not that expensive to just buy a copy of every book legally and scan them. And there's even precedent that this is legal predating LLMs (Google books)

Re: The Kimi K3 Moment

#179

Post by adamtaylor_13 »

newaccountman2 wrote: post #132
Danox wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At this point, the United States will lose that battle most Countries in the world are going end up using electronics from Asia, that ship has sailed Japan, China, Korea, Singapore, Taiwan, Vietnam, dominate that area, China already dominates EVs, Drones and many other electronic devices, and with the way Donald Trump has picked fights, Europe, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Mexico and many others are looking for ot…

[flagged]

If rural America is that unappetizing, you understand you can just go live somewhere else, right? There is a very deep-seated hatred here that I suspect has little to do with actual "rural people".

America is what it is. The only thing that will change it is leaning in not bemoaning "rural people" on Hacker News.

Re: The Kimi K3 Moment

#180

Post by SwellJoe »

VulgarExigency wrote: post #117
SwellJoe wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure how the economics work for the Chinese models, but DeepSeek did the same task for a dime.

In my opinion, for the vast majority of use cases, DeepSeek is still the most cost-effective model by a mile. $10 feels like it lasts forever.

Yep, with Reasonix, DeepSeek is free real estate. Seems to just go and go for pennies.

And, DeepSeek is what I use for any task that works best with an API. It's cheap enough to where I don't think about cost, made even cheaper by DeepSeek having the most effective and cheap caching in the industry, and it's good enough to where I rarely have to follow up with a more expensive model or manually fix things. It's been alleged they're releasing an update to DeepSeek V4 Pro soon that improves it, which likely makes it a good fit for even more kinds of problems. It remains my favorite of the Chinese models, it's so cheap and cheerful. And, is also less aggressively censored than some of them.

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