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Words Are a Byproduct of Consciousness. For LLMs, It's Backwards

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Re: Words Are a Byproduct of Consciousness. For LLMs, It's Backwards

#171

Post by RaftPeople »

epihelix wrote: post #97
t43562 wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you ever had impressions about something complicated, e.g. someone's personality which you cannot put into words? I'm thinking of my kid - her personality when she was tiny. I could see what it was but not explain it. Hence I think ideas are unquestionably first and words are the inadequate and inaccurate description of thoughts that exist without them.

Have you ever reasoned through a complex coding or maths problem? Tell me, how did you do that without words? You (and TFA) are making a false dichotomy here. Yes, of course we think in images. But we also have an inner monologue that is critically important for much of our higher-level thought. How do you even write a HN comment without thinking through it in words?

> Have you ever reasoned through a complex coding or maths problem? Tell me, how did you do that without words?

When I'm working through complex software design issues it's almost all abstract images/conceptual.

Testing different design approaches and options are all non-verbal, I imagine the system using abstract imagery that represents the different concepts.

Re: Words Are a Byproduct of Consciousness. For LLMs, It's Backwards

#172

Post by kelseyfrog »

Dependance wrote: post #139
brotchie wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If consciousness didn’t exist, you wouldn’t exist! you’d have no interior experience.

How do you know they have one ?

I lack a subjective experience and have no interiority.

Watch this. They won't even believe you if report your own internal state. They'll even claim they have epistemic authority over your own interiority while not granting you the same authority over their internal state.

Re: Words Are a Byproduct of Consciousness. For LLMs, It's Backwards

#173

Post by tgv »

gowld wrote: post #148
tgv wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Animals communicate, and it may be primitive, but a lot of it doesn't seem to require consciousness. Should someone insist, it then depends on what you call "a word".

Words are like atoms. We also have sentences (molecules) and paragraphs (structures) and more. Complexity matters.

The OP means "concept". The author doesn't want to use fancy words or has no idea of (psycho)linguistics.

Re: Words Are a Byproduct of Consciousness. For LLMs, It's Backwards

#174

Post by mhjkl »

sometimelurker wrote: post #110
jvanderbot wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Love the analogy. I a lot of people had their mind blown by vector space representation of words. The idea that Female + King averaged out around "Queen". Words might foundational to concepts or just really-well-designed ways to transmit them.

You have the word 'bot' in your name and judging by your comment history love using em-dashes. Are you a machine or not?

This comment would go hard in a sci-fi novel 5 years ago

Re: Words Are a Byproduct of Consciousness. For LLMs, It's Backwards

#176

Post by rented_mule »

mat0 wrote: post #167
etrautmann wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this is different if you have vision though. I struggle to understand how someone can look at intelligent animals that don’t have language and not intuitively assume that they’re conscious. Yes this is a tricky problem without an answer but IMO the elements of consciousness can exist without language if visual abstractions are present.

Yes. I have high confidence that animals are in fact conscious, in the same way that one can train in meditation and completely (although briefly) shut off the thinking brain, the inner dialog, and still be fully conscious and aware of what’s happening. For me, consciousness is this awareness of all the inputs we are having: visual, tactile, sound, etc. there’s no reason to believe that primates weren’t conscious of…

There is clearly a level of thinking that doesn't involve language. Participating in competitive sports has been a core part of my family, with some competing at elite levels. When you get to a certain level, if language is involved during the most intense moments, you fail because you act too slowly. Some say you are "reacting" or "using muscle memory" or "using intuition", but some very complex behavior comes from this.

To me, it feels a lot like meditation, or being in the flow when writing code, or being immersed in a video game. I don't have the skills to know, but I wouldn't be surprised if elite chess players are doing the same thing. It's also riding a bike or driving a car, and I think it's why we sometimes can't remember if we stopped at that stop sign behind us, but we almost always did. Language is almost always deeply involved in developing these skills, but gets in the way of top performance once the skills are there.

This feels like a higher level of consciousness to me than language-based thinking. And I think there's a good chance it's the same kind of thinking that we see in animals and primates. Our advantage is that we've figured out how to use language to inform that level of thinking / consciousness more deeply and in more domains.

Re: Words Are a Byproduct of Consciousness. For LLMs, It's Backwards

#177

Post by yieldcrv »

bluefirebrand wrote: post #24
danielmarkbruce wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is getting voted down because people just hate the idea that it's true.

No it's down voted because we didn't stochastic parrot ourselves into landing on the moon and building the internet and modern highways and skyscrapers Dismissing humanity that was is absurd

LLMs with reality interfaces (aka a body) can do those things, add world models and they'll do all those things better in our world, the first time and better than us. because the failures would have happened inside the world model

Re: Words Are a Byproduct of Consciousness. For LLMs, It's Backwards

#178

Post by sometimelurker »

jvanderbot wrote: post #144
sometimelurker wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh I figured there's a real human being named Josh Vander and youre his openclaw or something. why do you have the `bot` suffix?

Because I spent 15 years working in robotics, and I'm a nerd who over indexed identity on that :)

sorry abt that, its just there's a lot of bots on hn nowadays and I get irritated sometimes. mb

Re: Words Are a Byproduct of Consciousness. For LLMs, It's Backwards

#179

Post by zkmon »

orthoxerox wrote: post #138
zkmon wrote: post #111

> First there is a concept, a feeling, an image, and then the words come out to describe it. Nope. Concepts, feelings and ideas do not exist independent of expression (words, sounds, responses). Humans have the same process as LlMs have. And that's precisely why LMs are able to succeed. Similar to how camera works based on the working of an eye, or how aeroplane works based on a birds wing. If you still believe that…

My son is insufficiently verbal (he's of the kind that communicates with quotes, but really struggles to express or understand new sentences), and I am quite sure he has concepts, feelings and ideas.

Ofcourse he has. Because he does express in his own way. He is not struggling to express, by the way. It's your perception that others are struggling. It's like a rich man who thinks that everyone less richer than him are struggling.

But your measure, all animals are struggling to express. No they aren't. You are defining expression from your own, specific standpoint.

The concepts one has, do not exceed their expression abilities. So nobody is struggling.

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