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Michigan bill would bar employers from requiring after-hours coms with workers

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171–180 of 238 posts

Re: Michigan bill would bar employers from requiring after-hours coms with workers

#171

Lots of privilege in this thread showing. This is the equivalent of "what global warming, it was so cold today". Please remember that just because you aren't expected to have consistent unpaid after-hours comms doesn't mean that others don't. Bills like this would help a lot of people who are victims of "can you just take a look at this real quick" at 6pm. It does need to be at the country level though, otherwise emp…

Why is this a government issue at all? It was unclear from the article why some contingent that doesn't like their relationship with their employer ought to be able to inflict their solution on everyone in Michigan via politics as the mechanism instead of the market

> Why is this a government issue at all?

For the same reason anything is a government issue, i.e. that we regulate acceptable and unacceptable behaviors as a society, and periodically adjust what we find acceptable?

If your employer starts dumping large amounts of trash on your property tomorrow and says "oh that's just part of our relationship with you", I bet you'll want to get the government involved real quick because you never agreed to this.

Re: Michigan bill would bar employers from requiring after-hours coms with workers

#172
post #58

There's a weird incuriosity in the responses here for a place that calls itself Hacker News. "This doesn't happen to me" is about the least interesting or useful response you could have to someone telling you something happens to them. Someone is telling you the world works differently for them than it does for you, which means you've got an opportunity to learn something new about the world and expand your model. Ev…

Are there particular responses you have in mind? I can find two comments making this point, one which opens with >Maybe I just have abnormal leverage while the other opens with >I'm curious The top two top-level comments are responding to this trend, so I assume it is or was present, but I'm not seeing it. I do wish people would reply to the comments they find objectionable instead of doing these meta comments subtwe…

I think there's two things I'd point to here -

The first is that, by the standards of the world at large, this is a relatively homogeneous community. It is still a wildly diverse community, that's one of the things that makes it valuable, but in the same way that psychology has a WEIRD[1] problem, Hacker News is homogeneous - we're more likely, as a community, to not include a viewpoint sampled at random from humanity than to include it.

That points towards the second, which is that there's a tendency within this group where, when a news article comes up or a law is proposed or an academic study is posted in which some factor of human life is discussed ("X% of people experience food scarcity", "Y state bill would bar employers from Z", "B in C people are genetic carriers for Q"), to discuss it from our own viewpoint - "My cousin who experienced food scarcity was a klepto," "my employer tried to call me off hours and I didn't answer," "my cousin died from Q." This is both intensely human and often fairly useless here, because of point one above. I am a straight white male who grew up in a house whose affluence varied but never dropped below sustenance who's worked in tech my entire life. I have parts of myself that are genuinely different, where I feel I can genuinely provide new information to the group (I've had heart surgery, for instance), but by and large, if I share my experience with this group, it's to commiserate with colleagues. I am part of this community; things which seem strange to me are more likely than not to be outside this broader community's lived experiences as well.

So my critique here, broadly, is that we as a professed group of hackers - as a group of people who've self-labeled as curious - have a bad tendency to read things that indicate an experience of life that we haven't or don't have (in this case, that someone could be unable to deny their employer after-hours comms) and focus on our own experiences, rather than recognizing that we're being provided an opportunity to expand our understanding of the possible states of the world or the possibilities of being for people in this world.

It's understandable and deeply human that we would do so - we're social creatures, and community building is in part an act of expressing and validating commonality - but for a group whose self-identity is curiosity, to respond to evidence of someone else's lived experience by reiterating our own lived experience when that experience is likely to be within that of the broader group present is... well, it just takes up space.

(By the way, this is the point in the post where I'm going to nod towards my neurodivergent brethren: when I say below "we," if the point I'm making doesn't apply to you, understand that if you were in a room with you, me, and 10 wolves, and I said "there's too many wolves in this room," and you responded "well I'm not a wolf," I would agree with you and that wouldn't change my point.)

We are, broadly, a privileged group. Broadly, the people on this forum have remarkable market power. Broadly, the people on this forum are wealthy. Broadly, the people on this forum are educated. If, when you comment on a thread, you are expressing a part of your lived experience that broadly coincides with the lived experience of the median person on this forum, _you are not adding to the discussion._ You're not expanding the discussion. You're not helping people learn. You're not, yourself, learning. If you read something on this forum and think, "weird, that's not how I experience the world," think to yourself "Am I adding to this discussion by saying that?"

1. https://oecs.mit.edu/pub/spow8trw/release/1

Re: Michigan bill would bar employers from requiring after-hours coms with workers

#173
post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Privilege is thinking that something isn't a problem because it doesn't affect you personally." is a sticker I bought once.

I've never bought a sticker like that.

I haven't either. I'm honestly questioning how many resources are being wasting on bumper stickers we don't buy. Is this why I couldn't find the sticker I wanted last week?

Re: Michigan bill would bar employers from requiring after-hours coms with workers

#174
post #58

There's a weird incuriosity in the responses here for a place that calls itself Hacker News. "This doesn't happen to me" is about the least interesting or useful response you could have to someone telling you something happens to them. Someone is telling you the world works differently for them than it does for you, which means you've got an opportunity to learn something new about the world and expand your model. Ev…

I think in many cases this has less to do with incuriosity and more to do with denial.

Re: Michigan bill would bar employers from requiring after-hours coms with workers

#175
post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think "this doesn't happen to me" is a valid response. We're all here sharing. I find the internet full of panic and fear and negativity these days and it overstates how pervasive a thing is. Example: I travel to Disney World sometimes. There's a recent hubub about transportation and the blame is all on "OMG THE INFLUENCERS ARE EVERYWHERE". In those situations it's interesting how many people will spread those stor…

Its valid but useless. Think someone says i'm thirsty all the time because there's little clean water available, what's available is expensive but it could be better if we did so-and-so. and someone replies I'm not thirsty.

It’s impossible for a lizard to convince a sheepdog to turn up the thermostat. It’s impossible for a sheepdog to convince a lizard to turn down the thermostat.

Which one is right?

Re: Michigan bill would bar employers from requiring after-hours coms with workers

#176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When US people come to Europe, they are shocked because indeed a business closes at 2 pm, and if you arrive at 2:05 pm it is your fault. If your contract says 9-5, you are not expected to work at 6 pm in the name of customers. The business need to hire someone to cover the evening, and customers get used to buy things in comercial hours. Yes, some people do overtime, but society structured around the fact that worker…

Retail workers in the US are paid hourly and clock in and clock out to shifts, with strict rules around schedules and breaks. If a retail business has a stated closing time (say, 7pm), and you show up at 7:05 (or honestly 6:55), you will not be served. The main detriment to quality of life of retail workers is that most of them are kept part time below the number of hours where employer health insurance is mandatory,…

One thing that happens a LOT in retail is, say if a store closes at 10pm, a customer will walk in at 9:58pm, be there for 30 min to an hour, and employees HAVE to stay until they leave and cannot kick them out. If they do, they can get written up. Not all businesses do this obviously, but I've worked in retail long enough to have seen this happen a lot.

Re: Michigan bill would bar employers from requiring after-hours coms with workers

#177
post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same here. Applications developers and QA often can't really do their jobs, so I get roped in on every problem it seems. Plans to go out with my family on my birthday? Canceled. Plans to go kayaking with my wife on Saturday? Canceled. At this point, I am extremely tempted to leave my job, sell my house, buy some land in Wyoming or something, and just be content to be poor.

I know it's easier said than done but is there anything you can do to become an advocate for change? I've been fortunate to have a very limited amount of on-call events. At one place for 3.5 years there was 1 event. In another place there's been 2 in the last 9 months but on the bright side these events are taken seriously in the sense that dev time is immediately prioritized to hopefully prevent them from happening…

>I know it's easier said than done but is there anything you can do to become an advocate for change?

IME, very few companies care they are screwing up their employees' lives. It's why these laws are good since it puts financial cost on them and gives their employees cover.

Re: Michigan bill would bar employers from requiring after-hours coms with workers

#178
post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh I've known from back my food service days that "management" aka salary was a fucking scam. It was ALWAYS a way to get massive unpaid overtime extracted upon threat of firing. And overtime for workers was inexcusable, no matter what. Got a rush? Too fucking bad, clock out. These days professionally, I agreed to 40h/week. That's what they get. If there's a real outage or un-manufactured crisis, then I'll stick aroun…

> I don't work for free for capitalists. What's your opinion on [cuck licensing]( https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48708655 )?

People who choose MIT or BSD licenses etm are idiots.

I'm staunchly for AGPL3, and harsh and strong enforcement actions against violators. You know, what the companies would do to us. Tit for tat.

Re: Michigan bill would bar employers from requiring after-hours coms with workers

#179
post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Privilege is thinking that something isn't a problem because it doesn't affect you personally." is a sticker I bought once.

I've never bought a sticker like that.

Thanks for the laugh.

Re: Michigan bill would bar employers from requiring after-hours coms with workers

#180

One thing I wonder is how will this politician work an after hours meeting with the citizens. Will she not show up or will she tell her constituents that THEY need to do the meeting at HER working hours?

Citizens are not employees of politicians. Only the politician’s staffers are. Arguably the politician works for us so we can decide their working hours.

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