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Home alone: Remote work, isolation, and mental health

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Re: Home alone: Remote work, isolation, and mental health

#171

Post by xg15 »

small_model wrote: post #35

But if I want to be social why does it have to be people I didnt choose (i.e. co workers). Why can I WFH and socialise with my family/friends who I choose to be with. This is basically nothing to do with remote work and more about isolation.

No one is stopping you. The question is how easy it is to do that vs staying lonely.

I think the problem is that "being social with" some group isn't always as easy as it seems. Work and family are sort of two "default" groups that you automatically have access to (even if those groups may not always be fitting or rewarding).

For other social groups, you have to invest effort yourself, and that effort can be a lot: Finding communities in the first place, making contact, staying engaged, being socially fluent enough that others want to keep contact, etc etc.

That's a lot of work and also requires some skill (and even luck sometimes). Not everyone may be willing or able to put in that work.

(Specifically for work environments, I wonder if the "shared misery" aspect might also play a role: In a work environment, everyone knows that you're not here for fun - paradoxically, that might make some social interactions easier, because you can stop interacting without sending a negative message. In contrast, in voluntary activities, this is harder, because the basic expectation is that you want to be there. So talking about interactions that didn't work well socially might be harder.)

Re: Home alone: Remote work, isolation, and mental health

#172

Post by xchip »

em-bee wrote: post #129
fdgfikgfv wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wasn’t homeschooled but I have been working from home for good part of last two decades. And I have not felt any negative effects of it. In fact, it forced me to go out seek friends in local communities like meetups and various clubs. I have a feeling that people who feel isolated due to WFH would be same people who don’t interact with anyone in the offices as well.

I have a feeling that people who feel isolated due to WFH would be same people who don’t interact with anyone in the offices as well i am experiencing this from a different angle. i am shy in certain situations so i don't easily socialize. what helps me is forced/formalized socialization, like pair programming. forced in the sense that i don't have to ask someone to make it happen. (although asking gets easier as i g…

Well if you are shy, you have two options. Support going back to the office so everybody commutes there and you can easily talk to people without putting much effort... Or take it as a growth opportunity for yourself, take advantage of the extra time that you have saved in that useless commuting, and try to talk to people outside work and make friends as everybody else does.

Please believe in yourself!

Re: Home alone: Remote work, isolation, and mental health

#173

Post by ChrisMarshallNY »

throwaway2037 wrote: post #145
ChrisMarshallNY wrote: post #22

I think that it's pretty difficult to do an empirical study, here. The culture makes a big difference. I feel as if Americans can do remote "better" than other cultures, where constant human interaction is common. We already have a fairly isolated culture. That's not necessarily a good thing, though. It could be, that the increased isolation of remote is a "tipping point" kind of thing. In the US, it already happens…

> I'm fortunate as hell to participate in an organization that forces me to interact, fairly intimately, with others, on an almost daily basis. Sounds cool. What org?

Won’t mention it explicitly (them’s the rules), but it’s a program of personal Recovery.

Been at it for over 45 years.

Re: Home alone: Remote work, isolation, and mental health

#174

Post by tchalla »

chrisbrandow wrote: post #146
tchalla wrote: post #42

> Our results suggest that remote work substantially increases isolation and worsens mental health, particularly for those living alone. Another angle - people don't know how to deal with isolation if not their work. Remote work has accelerated an aspect that we already knew existed. Social systems are tied ONLY around work which is not healthy.

Working alone at home is far more novel and unusual than any arrangement of work and socialization that has existed in the last 500 years

"Third places" have existed for 1000s of years. We have actively weakened them by replacing them with modern work in the last 30 years or so. Remote work exposes it even further. In office work, papers over the cracks. It doesn't solve the issue.

Re: Home alone: Remote work, isolation, and mental health

#175

Post by [deleted] »

bentley wrote: post #98
watwut wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Homeschooled people just assume others must be unhappy in those places where they dont go, but that is not the case and not shown in statistics. Also, those people asking the question you find weird were asking about the experiences and kind of socialization that they consider big deal and was not going on in that place.

As someone who was public schooled six years and homeschooled six years, public school definitely made me more unhappy, and was worse for me socially. Of course, I wouldn’t assume everyone in my shoes would have the same experience. But it definitely cemented my positive opinion about homeschooling generally.

[deleted]

Re: Home alone: Remote work, isolation, and mental health

#176

Post by good8675309 »

watwut wrote: post #33
ubertaco wrote: post #10

This reminds me of growing up as a homeschooled kid and hearing people ask my parents "but how will they socialize?", generally while we were at the youth soccer field or at the playground or somewhere else that the irony should have caught their attention. Homeschooled kids can be isolated more because they don't have the forcing function of mandatory group settings, but often there are other opportunities available…

Homeschooled people just assume others must be unhappy in those places where they dont go, but that is not the case and not shown in statistics. Also, those people asking the question you find weird were asking about the experiences and kind of socialization that they consider big deal and was not going on in that place.

There’s a lot of assumption in that statement. I was never homeschooled but I hated public school so much that I decided to homeschool all 4 of my kids. They love the freedom and they are honestly over socialized

Re: Home alone: Remote work, isolation, and mental health

#177

Post by graemep »

ubertaco wrote: post #10

This reminds me of growing up as a homeschooled kid and hearing people ask my parents "but how will they socialize?", generally while we were at the youth soccer field or at the playground or somewhere else that the irony should have caught their attention. Homeschooled kids can be isolated more because they don't have the forcing function of mandatory group settings, but often there are other opportunities available…

IMO home education is usually better for social development because you typically meet a greater variety of people in different settings. I think its more likely to be a problem for some adults. Remote work can be bad for a large group of people. If you live alone and do not have existing local communities you will have to make an effort. How easy that is depends on where you live.

Remote work (especially as I have been self employed) has definitely allowed me to spend more time with my children (and allowed me to home educate them!) but they are grown up (the younger one will start university this year), I have divorced and moved house so i do not automatically have the family and social network you have. It does not mean I am isolated, but it does mean its not automatic. I can imagine many people do slip into isolation.

Socially, there might be a benefit to local communities from more people engaging. AT long last a replacement for the role stay at home mum used to play in many communities?

Re: Home alone: Remote work, isolation, and mental health

#178

Post by joe_mamba »

zwaps wrote: post #148
nextos wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My statement obviously referred to major cities, which is where most IT jobs are, as I indicated remote work allows you to leverage cheaper locations. Take for example Oxford. A typical rental will be around £1,600 pcm. The median pre-tax salary is around £50,000, which converts to around £3,100 net. So, the apartment is actually more than 50% of your net income. Some programming jobs will pay a bit more, but you get…

In UK and Spain, computer engineers earn the median income?

In many EU countries they do, after taxes. Exceptio being eastern block countries where non-tech salaries salaries are por.

Re: Home alone: Remote work, isolation, and mental health

#179

Post by joe_mamba »

throwaway2037 wrote: post #137
nextos wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

True, there's also another factor about not having to be tied to a geographic spot, housing costs. In EU, even relatively good IT salaries are mediocre when you factor in monthly rental. A simple one-bed apartment can easily take 50% of your net income. Having freedom to move, even within a particular country, allows reducing that 50% to something more sustainable.

It never ends on HN, does it? These wild claims about "[i]n EU". I puke each time I see that phrase. The EU is enormous . There is no way that a "simple one-bed apartment can easily take 50% of your net income" in any mid-sized EU city, or an hour outside a large EU city.

Chill bruh. He most likely meant in EU's most livable, big, international Tier-1 cities where the SW dev markets are hot: London, Paris, Barcelona, Stockholm, Munich, Lisbon, Warsaw, Prague, etc

Obliviously, if you live in some small-ish 200k-500k non-touristic city away from the big metro areas, then CoL will be much less and your income will stretch much further and you might be better off financially, but then those cities also have a lot less to offer in terms culture, events, entertainment, along with fewer or even no work and socializing opportunities for SW devs as tech jobs concentrate only in the big metro areas.

So it depends on what you prioritize. Young single people tend to sacrifice savings, to live in big expensive cities for career and social opportunities, while people with families tend to do the opposite. But in general it's difficult to have your cake and eat it too unless you're very lucky.

Re: Home alone: Remote work, isolation, and mental health

#180

Post by reg_dunlop »

ubertaco wrote: post #24
reg_dunlop wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All things being equal, if a person works remotely, apparently they're more likely to trend reclusive. At the same time, a person working in an office has the illusion of social activity. Just because a person works in an office doesn't mean they're more well adjusted socially, or more active. Just because a person works remotely doesn't mean they're a recluse. Life requires effort and being engaged. Though as a remo…

>All things being equal, if a person works remotely, apparently they're more likely to trend reclusive. The existence of families and housemates reveals this to be a false dichotomy: either you're spending in-office time with coworkers or you don't like being around any people, seems to be the claim.

Part of the study specifies remote workers living alone. So it appears the focus of the study excludes those fortunate enough to have family or housemates.

But I do agree that the claim being made is the false dichotomy you point out

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