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My Students Can't Read

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Re: My Students Can't Read

#171

Post by insane_dreamer »

pclowes wrote: post #28

We really need to make high school diplomas mean something again. However, this means something like a 35% fail rate. Unfortunately, the populace would not accept that and so every credential gets inflated to worthlessness. 90%+ of all people in undergrad and 50% of grad school probably shouldn’t be there. They just want the credential, to get the job, to get the money. This is understandable but there is no interest…

> They just want the credential, to get the job, to get the money.

The problem is that because you can no longer get a non-minimum wage job without a college degree, universities are now basically just a place to get a piece of paper so you can get a job, any job. They're no longer "halls of higher learning". A bachelor's degree is the new high school degree.

If you could earn a living without a college degree, like you used to be able to, those going to uni would be those who want to educate themselves.

Re: My Students Can't Read

#172

Post by thefz »

ngriffiths wrote: post #20

> The students who cannot read a 20-page article today are the voters who will not be able to read a bill, or the jurors who cannot follow a closing argument, tomorrow. Obviously literacy is super important but these are examples of things where literacy plays very little role, because ~nobody can read a bill, or follow a written legal argument. I mean a very literate person can get something out of reading it, which…

A literate person is able to read an article in a newspaper and understand it has a bias or a certain angle, though. Or see an headline in social media and understand it's fake, or bullshit.

Re: My Students Can't Read

#173

Post by BLKNSLVR »

joegibbs wrote: post #92

There was a study "They don’t read very well: A study of the reading comprehension skills of English majors at two midwestern universities" last year where they had university students try to read the opening of Bleak House by Dickens, they couldn't do it at all. Text: "it would not be wonderful to meet a Megalosaurus, forty feet long or so, waddling like an elephantine lizard up Holborn Hill." Respondent: "It’s prob…

I consider myself quite literate, and (I think) can both read and construct complex sentences that remain grammatically- and content-descriptively-correct.

Having said that, when I read Thomas Pynchon, and I've only progressed through four of his more beginner-friendly books, in a number of places I feel that reading his work is something that is passively happening to me, as opposed to my actively following along with the action / description.

There's something I enjoy about Pynchon's writing, but I don't think I'm picking up everything that he's putting down.

Similarly with the older language used by Dickens. But damn it sounds good.

Re: My Students Can't Read

#174

Post by [deleted] »

whimblepop wrote: post #95
XorNot wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you plan to do with the people who don't pass though? Everyone's very excited to have failure rates or whatever and then mute on the real problem: those people don't just go away.

You can't make people more knowledgeable by not attempting to measure their knowledge. You can maybe try to improve things for subsequent generations. But issuing a false credential won't solve the problem.

[deleted]

Re: My Students Can't Read

#175

Post by stackbutterflow »

godelski wrote: post #132
abaymado wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can attest to this. I grew up outside of the US, where starting in middle school, there are national exams that determine what field of study you are going to end up in. A higher score is needed for STEM majors; the rest who pass end up in Arts and Business. If you fail, your only option is manual labor. For students who don't come from "privilege" it was sink or swim, and those who survived the waves actually dese…

I think this is a more important comment than people might take it for. We all want meritocracy. Really. But the problem is that meritocracies are never really meritocratic. The problem is that it's actually really hard to measure these things. It looks simple at first glance, but once you dive into things it starts to change. Let's change your example above and ignore cheating. Let's say there's no cheating. The ric…

Is meritocracy a dream for a society?

The danger of a meritocracy is in the word. What do you merit? Your job? Fair enough. More rights? Certainly not. I'm afraid it's easy for some to start viewing others as lesser because they don't merit one's position, consequently one's status and thus should not have a seat at the important tables because after all they don't "merit" it.

What I want ultimately is that we strive to give a better life to everyone. And I don't think that's what meritocracy achieves.

Re: My Students Can't Read

#176

Post by bmn__ »

godelski wrote: post #143
whimblepop wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IQ is about aptitude and credentials on specific topics are about knowledge and skills. It's the wrong thing to optimize for. Besides, high-IQ students can still underperform for many of the same reasons that average-IQ students often do (e.g., under-preparation, lack of discipline, disorganization, mental illness, financial distress, unstable living situation). We should be better addressing those things before stud…

> IQ is about aptitude and credentials on specific topics are about knowledge and skills. Meaning it can be learned. Trained. I'm not defending the metric. People use it like it is some innate thing that doesn't change over one's lifetime. In fact, a college education is a great way to increase your IQ. It's also important to note that IQ is normalized. An IQ of 100 today is different than an IQ of 100 20 years ago.…

> > IQ is about aptitude

> Meaning it can be learned. Trained. […] In fact, a college education is a great way to increase your IQ.

You make this argument on the assumption that the effect is causal. But in reality one cannot distinguish whether education raises IQ or whether people with higher IQs stay longer in college.

Re: My Students Can't Read

#177

Post by bmn__ »

anubistheta wrote: post #122
KPGv2 wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So your solution for the system failing a person is to punish the person but reward the powerful people engaged in the bad behavior. The ones who brainwashed the kids into thinking that this is what they're supposed to do.

People have agency. The system didn't fail a person. That framing completely ignores their actions. Especially for paying so little on their loans and complaining about it. 18 year olds can vote. If we trust them with that, surely they can be responsible for their own choices. Moreover, they said the accreditation of both institutions should be investigated.

Not so. The consideration should include the fact that when a child has been spawn camped by school, family and society at large to implant the idea that tertiary education is required to participate in society and without a degree one amounts to nothing, as is often the case, then it indeed is a failure of systematic nature and it would be not fair to put the blame on the now young adult's shoulders alone.

Re: My Students Can't Read

#178

Post by WildSense »

bmn__ wrote: post #177
anubistheta wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People have agency. The system didn't fail a person. That framing completely ignores their actions. Especially for paying so little on their loans and complaining about it. 18 year olds can vote. If we trust them with that, surely they can be responsible for their own choices. Moreover, they said the accreditation of both institutions should be investigated.

Not so. The consideration should include the fact that when a child has been spawn camped by school, family and society at large to implant the idea that tertiary education is required to participate in society and without a degree one amounts to nothing, as is often the case, then it indeed is a failure of systematic nature and it would be not fair to put the blame on the now young adult's shoulders alone.

[flagged]

Re: My Students Can't Read

#179

Post by VoodooJuJu »

pclowes wrote: post #28

We really need to make high school diplomas mean something again. However, this means something like a 35% fail rate. Unfortunately, the populace would not accept that and so every credential gets inflated to worthlessness. 90%+ of all people in undergrad and 50% of grad school probably shouldn’t be there. They just want the credential, to get the job, to get the money. This is understandable but there is no interest…

[dead]

Re: My Students Can't Read

#180

Post by bmn__ »

marcus_holmes wrote: post #116
baggy_trough wrote: post #59

Do we have the courage to do what's necessary to fix education in the United States? That is: - abolish teachers unions - fail / keep back students who don't meet standards, in a completely objective fashion with no regard for racial / ethnic / gender sensitivities

Why does every conversation in the USA always involve race?

Because the country is full of people who always have race on their mind?
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