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SpaceX launches Starship v3 rocket

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Re: SpaceX launches Starship v3 rocket

#171
post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s an awkward comparison, but F9 can deliver a payload to orbit at a slightly lower price per kg than a Tomahawk missile can deliver it to a target. Starship would be MUCH cheaper if the economics works out the way that SpaceX would like it to. Obviously a few hundred kg of payload in orbit are not equivalent to the same payload delivered directly to a target.

You don’t need very many kg delivered to target if it’s plutonium. The SDI program had the idea was that if you parked enough defensive weaponry in orbit then maybe mutually assured destruction wasn’t something you had to worry about. The only problem was that getting all that mass into orbit was prohibitively expensive. Then the deputy director of the program met a young man named Elon Musk, and the rest is history.

I don’t think plutonium is the right comparison. Plutonium is expensive, and nuclear bombs are neither cheap nor particularly useful for doing things like attacking 10k different targets in some foreign country.

I’m imagining a launcher in a spacecraft that kicks out a bunch of payloads, one at a time, out the back, into orbits with perigee on or before the ground. (An LLM calculates the needed delta-V at under 200m/s, which is likely quite manageable with a small mass driver-style launcher or a very small rocket.) The payloads will lose a bunch of energy to the atmosphere, but all the remaining energy is kinetic energy delivered directly on target, assuming that you can inexpensively aim the thing at a target. Look up “Rods From God” on Wikipedia — you don’t even necessarily need any explosives.

So the question becomes: how economically can one build the guidance systems, avionics packages, and whatever heat shielding is needed to survive reentry?

(Cold War-era ICBMs with MIRV payloads are sort of in this category, but they treated launch vehicle as disposable, which means that the launch would be far more expensive but the reentry system could likely be a bit simpler as the payloads could be launched from a launch vehicle on a non-recoverable orbit. And it appears that Russia has attacked Ukraine with a MIRV-equipped missile with non-nuclear payloads, so there is precedent.)

Re: SpaceX launches Starship v3 rocket

#172
post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Landing is the trivial part, though the USAF traditions of "FOD walk" do seem funny to air forces where donations you found out the aircraft spent whole day flying with maintenance toolkit left in intake. The maintenance is the real difference - US specifically USAF gear is designed for nice air conditioned hangars to do regular maintenance, Gripen, MiG-29, and to way lower effect F-18 (when compared with F-16) - the…

The main reason the Mig29s have a reputation for easy maintenance is because they don't replace parts, they just throw away the whole airframe. The structural and engine service life is like 1/10th that of western fighters.

Not really. This "reputation" is based on misunderstanding of differences in doctrine.

The engines did have lower overall hours, yes, but the suggestion they need whole overhaul after very few hours is because it looks so when looking at it from USAF doctrine where "removing engine and sending it to special facility" is only for rare complete overhauls, and local mechanics are supposed to do regular minor work all the time.

MiG-29 instead was done under doctrine that the airbase does not have mechanics capable of doing such overhaul, nor the facilities to do so, and instead you swap the engine and send the used one to maintenance facilities further away from the front, same with other aggregates.

Re: SpaceX launches Starship v3 rocket

#173

Does anyone know how important hot staging is? It seems to give the booster a real kick - what's that do to turbo's and fuel movement? You've got hot exhaust onto cold cryo fuel tank header? You've got to carry more mass in terms of protection for the tank? Is doing MECO and then push and then get 100 yards apart or something before second stage / ship engines kick on a big enough penalty to justify all the extra com…

IIRC, it basically removes the need to do a handoff between the relatively tiny tanks that can reliably pump fuel and oxidizer in zero-g from the main tanks that struggle with that in starship, and completely removes the need for any of that on the booster.

Re: SpaceX launches Starship v3 rocket

#174
post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“seems to have hit the water harder than expected and was very off target.” SpaceX’s people were saying it was on target, and it seems to have landed in about the same position relative to the camera buoy as previous flights. I don’t think there’s any evidence to call it off target. The landing and toppling looked the same as previous flights too.

You've mixed up the ship and booster.

Yep, I did. Thanks.

Re: SpaceX launches Starship v3 rocket

#175
post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hopefully NASA ups their game for Artemis III

Well it was supposed to be a moon landing, but SpaceX didn't get their stuff developed. Artemis II flew by the moon btw, I think that's more impressive than SpaceX crashing a bunch of suborbital flights into the ocean while behind schedule.

My comment was about the video coverage. Artemis II's coverage for the launch was especially lame. The solitary gopro on the side of the capsule had some cool footage but was just a single camera.

The actual mission was not in doubt

Re: SpaceX launches Starship v3 rocket

#176
post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The amazing views of the plasma during re-entry, something never seen live before starship, are now routine. The word "live" is doing a lot of work here. Astronauts used to film the plasma going past the windows of Shuttle. I remember as a kid my science textbook had a still of it to illustrate plasma.

> The word "live" is doing a lot of work here A latency of a few seconds for streaming video compared to several months for a still photo from the Shuttle seems an entirely valid use of 'live'.

The difference here is a matter of AV technology improvements in the last 40 years.

Re: SpaceX launches Starship v3 rocket

#177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Small ships are less efficient, especially leaving the gravity well. Thats the whole point

Could you tell me more? I suppose a heavy two-stage rocket is not optimized from the point of view of the rocket equation, but I know nothing about this field.

In short, the more stages the better to discard mass once it isnt necessary, and the larger to the better to improve the ratio of (ship+payload) to fuel.

Here is a decent summary.

https://gemini.google.com/share/121466b300c1

Re: SpaceX launches Starship v3 rocket

#178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m really struggling to find a point to this comment

It's a joke. An excuse to share one of my favorite rockets. A rocket that happens to uniquely support your point.

I chuckled and appreciated the anecdote, having not read about this rocket before. Thanks.

Re: SpaceX launches Starship v3 rocket

#179

The best part of this flight was seeing the full reentry with no visible hot spots or burn through like we've seen on every previous reentry of Starship. Seems like they have the heat shields really nailed.

Yes, reuse of the heat shield has been the biggest question mark of the whole program and this is by far the best result of any launch so far. This is the first time it looks plausible that you could consider reusing the heat shield.

Keep in mind that all the prior flights had deliberately missing tiles specifically to test how bad the damage would be. This one had no missing tiles so it should have essentially no damage to the hull.

Re: SpaceX launches Starship v3 rocket

#180
post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, reuse of the heat shield has been the biggest question mark of the whole program and this is by far the best result of any launch so far. This is the first time it looks plausible that you could consider reusing the heat shield.

Keep in mind that all the prior flights had deliberately missing tiles specifically to test how bad the damage would be. This one had no missing tiles so it should have essentially no damage to the hull.

I think the worst damage on previous flights was often not related to the missing tiles.
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