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Two EA-18 fighter jets collide at Mountain Home airshow, pilots ejected safely

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Re: Two EA-18 fighter jets collide at Mountain Home airshow, pilots ejected safely

#171

Post by mlyle »

ExoticPearTree wrote: post #159
mlyle wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yah.. the roaring sound and precision of military aerial display teams can't be denied, and are an awesome experience. But it's something you see someone doing in a Pitts or Extra or maybe even a Citabria or 150 that makes you question your understanding of the laws of physics :D

It is not the same. Having a jet do a low pass is something that you will remember for a long time. Or having it go vertical with full after burners, especially close to sunset where you can see it better. The other factor is showing how good you are: sure, you can do formation flying in an Extra 300 or a C150, but doing it in a fighter jet show precission and skill, because it will not forgive you as easy as a slowe…

> It is not the same.

I have seen so many military display teams. Yes, I like the roar. But they blur together.

> sure, you can do formation flying in an Extra 300 or a C150,

But that's not what we watch Extra 330s do. We watch them do other things that are nuts that are also not so easily forgiven. I have fond memories of seeing Patty Wagstaff, Sean Tucker, and Rob Holland (rip). (And before that, Amelia Reid in her 150...)

Re: Two EA-18 fighter jets collide at Mountain Home airshow, pilots ejected safely

#172

Post by bigfatkitten »

kleiba2 wrote: post #166
ak217 wrote: post #95

What are Growlers doing performing aerobatic maneuvers at air shows? They have tens of millions in specialized extra equipment on board. Seems like a poor use of taxpayer money. Send regular F-18s, not the rare expensive ones that look the same.

How much do tax payers pay for an F-18?

Australia paid $125 million USD for a single unit order to replace the Growler that caught fire at Nellis in 2018.

Re: Two EA-18 fighter jets collide at Mountain Home airshow, pilots ejected safely

#173

Post by altmanaltman »

ak217 wrote: post #95

What are Growlers doing performing aerobatic maneuvers at air shows? They have tens of millions in specialized extra equipment on board. Seems like a poor use of taxpayer money. Send regular F-18s, not the rare expensive ones that look the same.

You cannot simply tell an EA-18G crew to hop into a "regular F-18" for the weekend. The pilots involved belong to a specific Electronic Attack Squadron (in this case, VAQ-129 based out of NAS Whidbey Island). Military pilots belong to specific units, maintain specific platform qualifications (NATOPS), and fly the aircraft assigned to their squadron. If a VAQ squadron is invited to perform or do a flyover, they bring their Growlers.The EA-18G is neither rare nor drastically more expensive than a standard Super Hornet in its base configuration.

The maneuvers performed by these types of aircraft at air shows (such as a "rejoin" or close-formation flying) are not circus stunts; they are standard tactical maneuvers that pilots practice daily. More importantly, military pilots are required to fly a certain number of hours each month to maintain their proficiency and flight status. Flying to, from, and during an air show counts toward these mandatory, already-budgeted flight hours.

Re: Two EA-18 fighter jets collide at Mountain Home airshow, pilots ejected safely

#174

Post by HNisCIS »

jandrewrogers wrote: post #160
ak217 wrote: post #95

What are Growlers doing performing aerobatic maneuvers at air shows? They have tens of millions in specialized extra equipment on board. Seems like a poor use of taxpayer money. Send regular F-18s, not the rare expensive ones that look the same.

Much of that specialized equipment is mounted on the hard points where you would otherwise attach ordnance. It is easily removable. In the videos I don’t see much evidence of that equipment being installed. This is consistent with what you would do for an airshow. The US military plans to lose about 25 airframes per year due to various mishaps. They operate well over 10,000 airframes and produce far more new airframe…

The G model hornets are extensively modified with different electrical harnesses and electronics for their role, they're not interchangeable at all in practice. The 20mm cannon is fully removed as well as the wing tip rails to make room for permanently mounted antennas and additional internal equipment. They aren't modular systems, apart from the AN/ALQ-99 or AN/ALQ-249 jamming pods.

Historically there were a few F models pre wired for G systems but the F models in USN inventory don't have this feature and the harnessing work required for the conversation is prohibitive.

Re: Two EA-18 fighter jets collide at Mountain Home airshow, pilots ejected safely

#175

Post by gspr »

jandrewrogers wrote: post #160
ak217 wrote: post #95

What are Growlers doing performing aerobatic maneuvers at air shows? They have tens of millions in specialized extra equipment on board. Seems like a poor use of taxpayer money. Send regular F-18s, not the rare expensive ones that look the same.

Much of that specialized equipment is mounted on the hard points where you would otherwise attach ordnance. It is easily removable. In the videos I don’t see much evidence of that equipment being installed. This is consistent with what you would do for an airshow. The US military plans to lose about 25 airframes per year due to various mishaps. They operate well over 10,000 airframes and produce far more new airframe…

> The optimal loss rate is not zero.

Fine, but surely if the achieved loss rate is projected to fall below the optimal one, then the optimal way to compensate is something else than crashing planes at airshows? Like, I don't know, dismantling for spares. Or scrapping. Or even target practice.

Re: Two EA-18 fighter jets collide at Mountain Home airshow, pilots ejected safely

#176

Post by jimohalloranau »

ExoticPearTree wrote: post #156
dboreham wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps the internet price excludes the EW payload? Seems like a plane with a load of electronics gear and transmitters/antennas would cost more than the same plane sans that stuff?

I do not know the specifics, but I think most of the EW gear sits on pods attached to the pilons, not inside the actual plane. The only difference that I know of compared to a regular F18 is that it requires two crew members to operate.

Most of the Growler "magic" is in pods carried on external hardpoints, but you couldn't just upload the EW pods onto a FA-18F Super Hornet and have a Growler.

The cannon in the nose of a regular Hornet is replaced with computer hardware in the Growler. There are also aerodynamic changes to make it a little more stable so it's a better EW platform. There's probably a million other small differences too, enough that you wouldn't try to convert a -19F Super Hornet into a Growler (although the RAAF did think they'd try at one point).

Re: Two EA-18 fighter jets collide at Mountain Home airshow, pilots ejected safely

#177

Post by lostlogin »

dnautics wrote: post #136
ak217 wrote: post #95

What are Growlers doing performing aerobatic maneuvers at air shows? They have tens of millions in specialized extra equipment on board. Seems like a poor use of taxpayer money. Send regular F-18s, not the rare expensive ones that look the same.

the pilots need to fly hours to keep their pilot rating anyways. So aside from the slightly elevated risk to the civilian observers, and the occasional risk due to maneuvers (I think they doing something particularly showy in this case?), the extra cost to the taxpayer do this is ~nil.

What sort of hours do you log for a crash? Does it end when the ejection starts, or feet-on/the/ground?

Re: Two EA-18 fighter jets collide at Mountain Home airshow, pilots ejected safely

#178

Post by hvb2 »

tedggh wrote: post #168
Gud wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s a pretty big “only”. Airplanes normally don’t fly so close.

There are many situations in real combat where pilots need to fly even closer than typical air show formations, like refueling or escorting other aircraft. So close formation flying is a fundamental skill for a pilot. Sure, we can minimize risk by not using certain aircraft and close formations during airshows, but pilots will still need to train and execute missions using high(er) risk maneuvers. Also air shows are…

Formation flying usually involves getting close and then 'just' maintaining distance. This has nothing to do with formation flying, this is acrobatics, different ballgame

Re: Two EA-18 fighter jets collide at Mountain Home airshow, pilots ejected safely

#179

Post by lostlogin »

jmward01 wrote: post #93
jterrys wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This actually begs the question...why the fuck would they use THESE for an airshow? They're aesthetically identical to F18 from a ground silhouette perspective. They blew through some really expensive planes from a much smaller fleet for a pony show that any regular F18 could've been part of.

They do training all day every day in these planes. Air shows are probably less exciting than the stuff they practice to do. Also, while they a generically '18's' they are EA-18g's and possibly have enough differences to require maintaining a separate NATOPs check from the other variants. (never flown one so I don't actually know though :). Either way, other than the blue angles who can't be everywhere and don't repr…

> Air shows are probably less exciting than the stuff they practice to do.

Well, except for this time.

Re: Two EA-18 fighter jets collide at Mountain Home airshow, pilots ejected safely

#180

Post by Gud »

cortesoft wrote: post #158
Gud wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s a pretty big “only”. Airplanes normally don’t fly so close.

Fighter jets in training probably do?

Doubtful there is any acrobatic training like this for the regular fighter pilot.
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