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Spain has become one of Europe’s cheapest power markets

janrosenow.substack.com

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Re: Spain has become one of Europe’s cheapest power markets

#171

Post by zejn »

mbid wrote: post #162
AndrewDucker wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If only they'd been able to build enough solar power to bring down the energy costs to the point where they could build solar.

Not sure if you're serious, but this was not viable in the 2010s, or even today in Germany at all because of Germany's high latitude: No matter how efficient solar panels become, they will always be more economical to operate closer to the equator. Anyway, the Chinese factories for the most energy intensive parts of solar panel production mostly run on coal power.

Don't tell the UK they aren't supposed to be getting >15% of grid power via solar panels, because it's more efficient if the panels are in Spain.

Re: Spain has become one of Europe’s cheapest power markets

#172

Post by ZeroGravitas »

mhh__ wrote: post #168
ZeroGravitas wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why are you hearing it discussed critically? It's a great British innovation that has demostrably made the world a better place and provided the UK (and others who have copied it) with big investments in cheaper and cleaner energy.

Recent piece in critic magazine by Chris bayliss for example.

Oh I see where you've gone wrong then:

https://www.desmog.com/2026/04/28/reform-donor-jeremy-hoskin...

> A major right-wing political funder has dramatically increased his fossil fuel investments this year, DeSmog can reveal.

> Jeremy Hosking, who owns the hedge fund Hosking Partners, donated £1.7 million to Reform UK between 2019 and 2024. The party, led by Nigel Farage, campaigns to scrap the UK’s flagship 2050 net zero emissions target, remove environmental protections, and turbocharge new fossil fuel extraction.

> Hosking also owns The Critic magazine, which frequently attacks climate policies and supports new North Sea oil and gas exploration. Its current edition carries a cover story titled “The Green Myth: Fossil Fuels are Britain’s Real Energy Source”.

...

> Its current cover story is written by contributing editor Chris Bayliss, who argues that renewable energy is unreliable and expensive. In a follow-up piece online, he blames “elite” support for net zero on “climate hysteria”.

> Bayliss is a former civil servant who works in the energy sector in Iraq. He’s the Iraq Country Lead for IM Power, which runs liquefied natural gas (LNG), oil and coal power plants, offers “oil and gas refining, storage and pipeline solutions”, and works to “maximise value from hydrocarbon resources

Re: Spain has become one of Europe’s cheapest power markets

#173

Post by leonidasrup »

energy123 wrote: post #19
badpun wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How much would it cost to build out batteries which cover entire continent's electricy needs for say three weeks (as there can be 2-3 week lulls of no wind and no sun in Europe in the winter)? Cause that sounds like a lot of batteries. Not to mention, if a freak 4 week lull occurs, we'll go back to Middle Ages for a week.

Australia's CSIRO studied this for Australia, renewables were half the cost of nuclear, factoring in storage and transmission for both renewables and nuclear (yes, nuclear also needs storage because energy demand varies with time). Australia is uniquely endowed with sun and land, so other countries/regions may arrive at different results.

Australia is also well endowed with coal and no carbon pricing, so for Australia the cheapest form of electricity production is a mix of solar + battery + coal.

Re: Spain has become one of Europe’s cheapest power markets

#174

Post by leonidasrup »

crote wrote: post #76
badpun wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How much would it cost to build out batteries which cover entire continent's electricy needs for say three weeks (as there can be 2-3 week lulls of no wind and no sun in Europe in the winter)? Cause that sounds like a lot of batteries. Not to mention, if a freak 4 week lull occurs, we'll go back to Middle Ages for a week.

"But what if thing thing that never happens were to happen?" We'd probably go deep into hydro, fire up every gas peaker plant, and through skyrocketing prices incentivize everyone to switch to emergency diesel generators where possible. You're talking about a once-in-100+-years event. We'll deal with it the same way we dealt with the various oil crises.

Those once-in-100+-years events are called crises because they have large impact on economy and loss of human life.

For example a short event in US with duration 2 hours–4 days, depending on location, affecting 55 million people.

Deaths: Almost 100

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northeast_blackout_of_2003

The Economic Impacts of the August 2003 Blackout

"Based on the much-studied 1977 New York City blackout. ICF Consulting estimated the total economic cost of the August 2003 blackout to be between $7 and $10 billion"

https://www.nrc.gov/docs/ml1113/ml111300584.pdf

Short blackout: 2025 Iberian Peninsula blackout

"The employers' organization CEOE estimated that the outage resulted in economic losses valued at €1.6 billion."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2025_Iberian_Peninsula_blackou...

Re: Spain has become one of Europe’s cheapest power markets

#175

Post by scythe »

XorNot wrote: post #109
scythe wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>On top of that battery prices have been plummeting too so that now Solar + battery is cheaper than other options like Nuclear and especially Gas. I'm a little bit sad that pumped hydro doesn't get more attention in the discussion. It might be too late for it to matter, with improvements in battery prices and ongoing lithium discoveries. But that only underscores the fact that it should have been allowed to matter tw…

Pumped hydro is objectively worse then batteries. Anyone can install batteries anywhere at a fairly minimal local fire risk. A dam is a major mechanical structure which if it fails will straight up obliterate downstream towns, and as such requires a numerous specialized engineering designs and on going maintenance to retain basic safety.

There have been two hydroelectric power plant failures in the United States in the last fifty years, and one near miss. This is among hundreds of dams many of which have operated for more than a century.

A pumped-storage dam also doesn't increase the area subject to flooding. If the upper dam fails, it flows into the lower lake. This can potentially be a design consideration. It's not like a greenfield hydropower dam.

If you want to play the rare catastrophic risk card, battery fires can release highly toxic hydrogen fluoride. But the damage of climate change is far greater than the very small risk from either dams or batteries, which is preventable in both cases with proper maintenance and monitoring. I think the tail risk question is moot, honestly.

Re: Spain has become one of Europe’s cheapest power markets

#176

Post by mbid »

zejn wrote: post #171
mbid wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure if you're serious, but this was not viable in the 2010s, or even today in Germany at all because of Germany's high latitude: No matter how efficient solar panels become, they will always be more economical to operate closer to the equator. Anyway, the Chinese factories for the most energy intensive parts of solar panel production mostly run on coal power.

Don't tell the UK they aren't supposed to be getting >15% of grid power via solar panels, because it's more efficient if the panels are in Spain.

How many solar panels does the UK produce?

Re: Spain has become one of Europe’s cheapest power markets

#177

Post by mbid »

zejn wrote: post #169
mbid wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> similar as in Sweden Sweden's electricity is ~40% hydro, ~27% nuclear and ~23% wind. How is this in any way comparable to Northern Germany?

> similar as in Sweden -- which has 4 bidding zones.

What's the point?

Sweden has lots of potential for long-term energy storage as hydro power, which makes wind power viable. Northern Germany is mostly flat and there's not even close to enough storage capacity (on the order of ~weeks) to make a wind powered grid economically competitive.

Re: Spain has become one of Europe’s cheapest power markets

#178

Post by steveBK123 »

ahartmetz wrote: post #165
koolba wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Spain also has pretty sensible legislation that is somewhat green. For large public areas the lowest allowed AC setting is 27°C / 81°F. As a red blooded American, this is the funniest thing I’ve seen all weekend.

You should try it, I find it rather pleasant. When I was in an office with per-room AC settings, I liked 27°C (shorts or light pants + T-shirt or short-sleeved shirt). When I was in Asia, I noticed that the setting was commonly 27°C. It seems to be only North America where "let's show nature who's boss" AC settings are common.

Maybe, but most people I know who set their summer thermostat super high like 81F also do the same in winter.. so its just hot vs cold preference.

Find me someone running 81F in summer and 59F in winter and I'll applaud their eco-consciousness.

Re: Spain has become one of Europe’s cheapest power markets

#179

Post by alamortsubite »

koolba wrote: post #119
jauntywundrkind wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Spain also has pretty sensible legislation that is somewhat green. For large public areas the lowest allowed AC setting is 27°C / 81°F. Where-as in America you'll go to a mall and it'll be 65°F. https://www.catalannews.com/politics/item/spain-limits-air-c... Probably doesn't make a ton of difference. But I found that very respectable. It made me hopeful they have other basic green sensibilities.

> Spain also has pretty sensible legislation that is somewhat green. For large public areas the lowest allowed AC setting is 27°C / 81°F. As a red blooded American, this is the funniest thing I’ve seen all weekend.

Even within the U.S., there's a correlation between obesity and climate control preferences. Spain's obesity rate is half ours.

Re: Spain has become one of Europe’s cheapest power markets

#180

Post by tormeh »

ahartmetz wrote: post #165
koolba wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Spain also has pretty sensible legislation that is somewhat green. For large public areas the lowest allowed AC setting is 27°C / 81°F. As a red blooded American, this is the funniest thing I’ve seen all weekend.

You should try it, I find it rather pleasant. When I was in an office with per-room AC settings, I liked 27°C (shorts or light pants + T-shirt or short-sleeved shirt). When I was in Asia, I noticed that the setting was commonly 27°C. It seems to be only North America where "let's show nature who's boss" AC settings are common.

27 is really bad when it's constant. I lived like this for long periods of time (top floor + evening sun) and it's exhausting. 25 is fine.
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