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The truth that haunts the Ramones: 'They sold more T-shirts than records'

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Re: The truth that haunts the Ramones: 'They sold more T-shirts than records'

#171

Post by georgeecollins »

abap_rocky wrote: post #87

I was reading an interview with the band "Agriculture" recently and they had a really interesting take on this. From this interview https://www.treblezine.com/agriculture-interview-quiet-viole... : "DM: We exist as a band because we sell t-shirts. Our job is that we sell t-shirts and the way we promote those t-shirts is by playing music. If we were talking strictly economically, that’s just a fact. LL: Weirdly, it’s…

I think all this talk of entertainment economics is missing the point of the article. Yes, today bands more money from tshirts then recordings. However, in the 70s and 80s they typically made a lot of money from LPs and CDs. In the time of the Ramones, that was how bands made money.

The point is that punk rock was culturally very influential but never very musically popular. God Save the Queen was a hit record but that is the outlier.

I think it is useful to consider that a lot things that endure are not the things that were popular at the time, particularly with music. I saw the Pixies at the Hollywood Bowl a couple years ago and it occurred to me that when they had recorded the songs they are known for I saw at venues not much bigger than bars. They were never really that popular. Or Elliot Smith, who was seriously obscure in his short lifetime.

Re: The truth that haunts the Ramones: 'They sold more T-shirts than records'

#172

Post by deeg »

tbossanova wrote: post #63
deeg wrote: post #7

If the Ramones put their name on all sorts of merchandise does that make them sellouts? I joke, of course, and I'm a big Ramones fan. I've had numerous iterations of that shirt over the years. I often use them as an example when discussing "what is good art?" They are one of the most influential bands of all time and yet they were terrible musicians.

How are they terrible musicians? They played their specific type of music extremely well. Like, technically better than most people will ever be at music. People loved seeing them play. I still enjoy their records. So, what is terrible?

Maybe it was part of his schtick but johnny often bragged about not practicing. He wanted the concerts to be raw. The mistakes were part of the art.

I played guitar for a while and didn't have much trouble playing them and I was barely adequate at best.

The hardest song for me was California Sun. I just couldn't figure it out until I realized it had 4 chords instead of three. I learned later that it was a cover.

Re: The truth that haunts the Ramones: 'They sold more T-shirts than records'

#173

Post by cm2187 »

ageitgey wrote: post #90
abap_rocky wrote: post #87

I was reading an interview with the band "Agriculture" recently and they had a really interesting take on this. From this interview https://www.treblezine.com/agriculture-interview-quiet-viole... : "DM: We exist as a band because we sell t-shirts. Our job is that we sell t-shirts and the way we promote those t-shirts is by playing music. If we were talking strictly economically, that’s just a fact. LL: Weirdly, it’s…

It's very smart of them to recognize that. The world is full of these weird business cases where people aren't aware of the actual product, like how Starbucks US morphed from a coffee shop into an iced dessert drinks company that also incidentally sells hot coffee. Edit: Other fun examples - In the mid-2000s, Porsche was an incredibly successful hedge fund that also sold cars who tried to acquire VW using a short squ…

And McDonald’s is known to be primarily a real estate company. Berkshire Hathaway is meant to be an insurance company. Military aircraft manufacturers are really maintenance companies.

Re: The truth that haunts the Ramones: 'They sold more T-shirts than records'

#174

Post by tastyfreeze »

MidnightRider39 wrote: post #123
abap_rocky wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, also the fact that most venues take a cut of merch sales really dampens the idea that buying merch directly from artists is the best way to put money in their pocket. I even recall going to a show many years ago where the lead singer refused to sell his t-shirts at the venue and implored us all to meet him outside at their tour van for direct sales. I don't think he got invited back to perform there!

Never heard about venues taking a cut off the merch - that’s fucked up… They already take (in almost all cases) 100% from drinks and bar sales. In my experience the ticket sales and merch go completely to the artist. Anything else I would consider a rip-off

That is certainly the case with many venues in the US after the LiveNation/Ticketmaster merger. Independent venues are much more rare, due to the LiveNation monopoly, but make their own deals with talent that are reasonable to both parties.

LiveNation operates so much of the venue spaces they can take whatever they want. Artists have been complaining to congress about it since the merger in 2010.

Re: The truth that haunts the Ramones: 'They sold more T-shirts than records'

#175

Post by bigbuppo »

Gualdrapo wrote: post #13
TMWNN wrote: post #4

Isn't it normal and typical for musical acts to make more money from concert tours and merchandise sales than the music itself?

I seem to recall reading that Gary Holt or Jack Gibson, either from Exodus, claim that despite being known worldwide as a thrash metal act they have to support themselves selling t-shirts, since their earnings from touring, albums or streamings won't cover their expenses

It was likely all of them, but the more famous quote recently from Gary is, “People think, ‘Oh, you're a rich rock star.’ No. I sell shirts outta my fucking closet.”

Re: The truth that haunts the Ramones: 'They sold more T-shirts than records'

#176

Post by btilly »

matthewkayin wrote: post #131
ageitgey wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's very smart of them to recognize that. The world is full of these weird business cases where people aren't aware of the actual product, like how Starbucks US morphed from a coffee shop into an iced dessert drinks company that also incidentally sells hot coffee. Edit: Other fun examples - In the mid-2000s, Porsche was an incredibly successful hedge fund that also sold cars who tried to acquire VW using a short squ…

I don't know if the Starbucks example is quite the same as the band example. If anything, their focus on iced desserts shows that they know exactly what their audience wants and is paying for. When I think about the band shirts, I think about this time an indie game dev youtuber did a full breakdown of their different revenue streams. They were a "full time indie gamedev", but the overwhelming majority of their incom…

The reality is that Starbucks is the world's biggest unregulated bank, with their claws in the real estate industry. Who got that way by selling the experience of hanging out in a convenient coffee shop.

Their business has run into trouble a couple of times because MBA types in the company lost sight of this, then focused on trying to sell drinks efficiently. Thereby diluting the brand and business.

If you've got 22 minutes, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ym7YwFq8ZuM is a very informative walkthrough of the history and the business by the always funny youtuber, The Fat Electician. Highly recommended.

Re: The truth that haunts the Ramones: 'They sold more T-shirts than records'

#177

Post by guyzero »

bobro wrote: post #164

My favorite example of this is Joy Division. They’re the band with that cool white-on-black ridge line plot shirt. If you haven’t listened to their music before, go check it out. You probably won’t like it very much. I don’t know how many records or shirts they sold, but their ratio of shirts sold to records sold has to be one of the wildest.

The bulk of those shirts have got to be pirated, but for a while they were selling them at Bandy Melville, a clothing store whose target demographic has seemingly very little overlap with fans of Joy Division. The ultimate triumph of the signifier over the signified.

Re: The truth that haunts the Ramones: 'They sold more T-shirts than records'

#178

Post by bigbuppo »

hvs wrote: post #8
TMWNN wrote: post #4

Isn't it normal and typical for musical acts to make more money from concert tours and merchandise sales than the music itself?

It's not that they made more money from merchandise, it's that they sold more t-shirts than albums. Implying that more people were interested in the "image" of punk rock than the music.

The last time I went to an Exodus show, there were more people in attendance than sales of their most recent album.

Re: The truth that haunts the Ramones: 'They sold more T-shirts than records'

#179

Post by reducesuffering »

gizajob wrote: post #115

Has anyone ever read, or even seen, THRASHER skateboard magazine?

Yes, for millions of skateboarders it was essential pre-2020. Not it's fault it became trendy for people like Rihanna to sport an edgy skater aesthetic.

Re: The truth that haunts the Ramones: 'They sold more T-shirts than records'

#180

Post by Triphibian »

abap_rocky wrote: post #87

I was reading an interview with the band "Agriculture" recently and they had a really interesting take on this. From this interview https://www.treblezine.com/agriculture-interview-quiet-viole... : "DM: We exist as a band because we sell t-shirts. Our job is that we sell t-shirts and the way we promote those t-shirts is by playing music. If we were talking strictly economically, that’s just a fact. LL: Weirdly, it’s…

Great band, cool shirts. Gotta say all the Flenser bands got the memo on strong merch.
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