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Java 26 is here

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Re: Java 26 is here

#171

Post by kirici »

lucketone wrote: post #70
andyjohnson0 wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"a solid foundation for the future" is faint praise for a language that has been around for over thirty years. > It has become a best of breed language To me it lags significantly behind .net (runtime) and C#/F# (language). I don't see Java catching-up.

Java is 4th on tiobe. Bright future for it just means it is not planning to become 40th or 400th. (My prediction - in next ten years java will always be among top 6; new language might come to the very top and some leapfrogging game between c# and java)

tiobe is garbage and should never be given any credibility.

Re: Java 26 is here

#172

Post by mands »

cess11 wrote: post #67
mands wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's getting better, it doesn't all have to be Spring Boot and JBoss. There is quarkus, helidon and micronaut for slimmer more modern backend frameworks. jbang for scripting (think uvx, bunx), Tambo UI ( https://tamboui.dev/ ) for terminal UIs, and more. Along with all the new Java features that help you write much simpler code - eg. virtual threads, structured concurrency, stream gatherers, and performance / resourc…

If someone reads this and wonders what JBoss is, the contemporary variety is called WildFly and it is actually rather easy to install and play around with. https://www.wildfly.org/ I think this is an often overlooked solution to some of the problems we nowadays tend to approach the clown for. As for build systems, Maven is old and cranky but if something else replaces it, it will probably be quite similar anyway.

Yep, I'm using JBoss as a catch-all for older "big-iron" style Application Servers - modern Jakarta EE (10 onwards) is much more slimmed down, and a solid option.

unsure re Maven, 4.0.0 has been around the corner for years, but I think there is space for a modern alternative that is JPMS first, supports semantic versioning (i.e. tilde/carat notation) with lockfiles, and doesn't require a bunch of plugins out of the box for common use-cases. Maybe Mill (https://mill-build.org) - i've yet to try it.

Re: Java 26 is here

#173

Post by jcranmer »

beachy wrote: post #110
dzonga wrote: post #37

the people that work on Java & the JVM are very smart. it has become a best of breed language - hell its better than Go for industry purposes. the drawback with Java will always be the CULTURE - (maybe someone can insert a quote of how in physics progress is only made, when old physicist die - I don't wanna be morbid ) but with Java same that's when the culture will change. All those people using typescript (could be…

I wonder if at we are standing looking at the smoking field of programming languages created over the last 50 years and gazing at the final survivors, of which Java is definitely one. Why would anyone create a new language now? The existing ones are "good enough", and without a body of examples for LLMs to train on, a new language has little chance getting traction. I learned IBM /360 assembler when I started in comp…

> Why would anyone create a new language now?

I'm writing my own programming language right now... which is for an intensely narrow use case, I'm building a testbed for comparing floating-point implementations without messy language semantics getting in the way.

There's lots of reasons to write your own programming language, especially since if you don't care about it actually displacing existing languages.

Re: Java 26 is here

#174

Post by jiehong »

mands wrote: post #58
dzonga wrote: post #37

the people that work on Java & the JVM are very smart. it has become a best of breed language - hell its better than Go for industry purposes. the drawback with Java will always be the CULTURE - (maybe someone can insert a quote of how in physics progress is only made, when old physicist die - I don't wanna be morbid ) but with Java same that's when the culture will change. All those people using typescript (could be…

It's getting better, it doesn't all have to be Spring Boot and JBoss. There is quarkus, helidon and micronaut for slimmer more modern backend frameworks. jbang for scripting (think uvx, bunx), Tambo UI ( https://tamboui.dev/ ) for terminal UIs, and more. Along with all the new Java features that help you write much simpler code - eg. virtual threads, structured concurrency, stream gatherers, and performance / resourc…

Quarkus is better, but isn’t that amazing IMO.

It’s still very much an annotation festival in the code, making the framework quite lengthy to learn for newcomers (gotta learn Java and the whole quarkus annotation DSL with it).

Go is verbose, but it is much more explicit and only uses standard language things instead of a whole annotation DSL.

Re: Java 26 is here

#175

Post by mands »

ivan_gammel wrote: post #113
chrysoprace wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that many jobs with Java (that I've found) lean so heavily towards OOP that it's part of the job description. I just don't enjoy OOP and find that there's almost always a simpler approach, and to have it prescribed as part of the engineering culture will always steer me away.

Most of backend development on Java is procedural with OO syntax and ability to replace something in the chain of calls with stub in tests. Spring beans are usually stateless singletons containing a few references.

Yep, I find it easier to think of a Spring (or any DI) Bean like a parameterized module that is applied at runtime, the code within each bean is pretty procedural.

Re: Java 26 is here

#176

Post by Nursie »

mands wrote: post #58
dzonga wrote: post #37

the people that work on Java & the JVM are very smart. it has become a best of breed language - hell its better than Go for industry purposes. the drawback with Java will always be the CULTURE - (maybe someone can insert a quote of how in physics progress is only made, when old physicist die - I don't wanna be morbid ) but with Java same that's when the culture will change. All those people using typescript (could be…

It's getting better, it doesn't all have to be Spring Boot and JBoss. There is quarkus, helidon and micronaut for slimmer more modern backend frameworks. jbang for scripting (think uvx, bunx), Tambo UI ( https://tamboui.dev/ ) for terminal UIs, and more. Along with all the new Java features that help you write much simpler code - eg. virtual threads, structured concurrency, stream gatherers, and performance / resourc…

Having used micronaut for a few years now, I hate it.

Maybe it's innate to trying to use a a fully fledged server-style framework in a serverless context, but I don't think it's suitable. In fact I think the whole idea ("Hey, let's bludgeon spring-like metaphors into an entirely new setting") was a poor one.

Java itself I've enjoyed more and more over time as the language has evolved into something much more expressive, and without all the enterprise crap. My hope is that one day frameworks like Micronaut will end up discarded too.

Re: Java 26 is here

#177

Post by mands »

jiehong wrote: post #174
mands wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's getting better, it doesn't all have to be Spring Boot and JBoss. There is quarkus, helidon and micronaut for slimmer more modern backend frameworks. jbang for scripting (think uvx, bunx), Tambo UI ( https://tamboui.dev/ ) for terminal UIs, and more. Along with all the new Java features that help you write much simpler code - eg. virtual threads, structured concurrency, stream gatherers, and performance / resourc…

Quarkus is better, but isn’t that amazing IMO. It’s still very much an annotation festival in the code, making the framework quite lengthy to learn for newcomers (gotta learn Java and the whole quarkus annotation DSL with it). Go is verbose, but it is much more explicit and only uses standard language things instead of a whole annotation DSL.

Helidon SE (https://helidon.io/#se) or Javalin (https://javalin.io/) would be more in that vein - straight-forward modern Java, super fast.

Re: Java 26 is here

#178

Post by voidfunc »

pron wrote: post #150
Capricorn2481 wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> and builds just as fast Source? I'm not saying you're lying but I have never seen any Java project build as fast as Go

Use javac directly, in a recent JDK, to compile lots of files at once (i.e. one invocation of javac to compile multiple files) and you'll see. The speed is over 100,000 lines/sec: https://mill-build.org/blog/1-java-compile.html

Seriously a need for a new build tool in Java that doesn't fuck around too much.

Re: Java 26 is here

#179

Post by klooney »

hintymad wrote: post #138
dzonga wrote: post #37

the people that work on Java & the JVM are very smart. it has become a best of breed language - hell its better than Go for industry purposes. the drawback with Java will always be the CULTURE - (maybe someone can insert a quote of how in physics progress is only made, when old physicist die - I don't wanna be morbid ) but with Java same that's when the culture will change. All those people using typescript (could be…

> hell its better than Go for industry purposes Yet if you ask people in the bay area, especially the those who are under 35, they would tell you that "Use Java? Over my deadbody". It's just amazing that people always chase shiny new things.

There's so much Java development in the Bay

Re: Java 26 is here

#180

Post by owlstuffing »

c0balt wrote: post #137
dzonga wrote: post #37

the people that work on Java & the JVM are very smart. it has become a best of breed language - hell its better than Go for industry purposes. the drawback with Java will always be the CULTURE - (maybe someone can insert a quote of how in physics progress is only made, when old physicist die - I don't wanna be morbid ) but with Java same that's when the culture will change. All those people using typescript (could be…

Maybe this is just a question of taste but I never could get along with Javas (or Kotlin's) tooling. Primarily working in Vim/Helix works for most languages from Nix to Typescript or Rust and C, but Java just never worked quite right. It also generally felt like it had a worse story around tooling from a DX perspective, something like Golang or even npm feels a lot lighter than the molasses of JDK management and grad…

> Maybe this is just a question of taste but I never could get along with Javas (or Kotlin's) tooling

Are you joking? IntelliJ is without a doubt the best dev tooling environment available.

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