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Obsession with growth is destroying nature, 150 countries warn

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Re: Obsession with growth is destroying nature, 150 countries warn

#171

Post by disconcision »

pfdietz wrote: post #155
disconcision wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

we had nearly 2 centuries of roughly exponential growth. ended in the 60s but not everyone got the memo

Is "roughly exponential growth" being used as a synonym for "growth"? Exponential is used as a scare word. It's not just growth, it's exponential growth! Run and scream in fright! Because if you don't do what I say you must do, we are exponentially doomed. Dooooomed!

i can't speak for everyone, but in the above assertion am using 'roughly exponential' to mean that world population between say 1880 and 1960 followed a curve that is, roughly, exponential, in the technical sense. much of the discourse 50 years ago, e.g. the population bomb, was predicated on this observation.

Re: Obsession with growth is destroying nature, 150 countries warn

#172

Post by lich_king »

ghurtado wrote: post #156
lich_king wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

> If we didn't have cities, we also wouldn't have eight billion people in the world. Could you break down the logic that leads you to this conclusion? Im sure it's deeper than "if cities disappeared right now, a lot of people would disappear with them"

Because the habitable surface of the planet is less than 100 million square kilometers and only a fraction of that is suitable for subsistence farming. The only reason we can accommodate 8 billion is that the majority of them live in high-density settlements and that food is grown on an industrial scale elsewhere.

Re: Obsession with growth is destroying nature, 150 countries warn

#173

Post by Jordan-117 »

rapht wrote: post #169
ericmcer wrote: post #128

What are we trying to achieve as a species? If we can't answer that question then we can't really judge our actions effectively. If we view humanity as the most intelligent life form not just on the planet, but in the entire universe, then we are the only source of order in an infinite chaos. All of reality is just entropy and mindless cruelty except for humanity. Viewed in that lens we almost have a duty to expand b…

That is the right question to ask. My temptation is to respond "Obsession with nature is destroying humanity's prospects." Now what?

What prospects does humanity have without nature, exactly? Even ignoring the moral and aesthetic value, it underpins not just the economy but the ability to survive on this planet. If the biosphere collapses then civilization will rapidly follow.

Re: Obsession with growth is destroying nature, 150 countries warn

#174

Post by myrmidon »

tokai wrote: post #103
modeless wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The lifestyle you describe is very cheap and you can certainly afford it, if you wanted. There are plenty of rural small towns you could choose from. Why not do it if it's what you think you want?

There's even places in Spain or Italy where they will give you the house for free, and possibly even cash to move in. Still with these benefits they are not reversing the decline of the country side.

I'd say that is nowadays almost completely just a direct consequence of general population decline, and not some more specific effect; this just hits rural communities harder because attracting new people is already difficult there (=> most job opportunities are elsewhere), and it is much easier to fall below "viability thresholds" (i.e. too small to sustain a general store) than it is for cities.

I'd argue that the "real" urbanization mostly finished in the 1980s or so, and the "urbanization" we see now is mostly incidental (and happens at lower rates, too).

Re: Obsession with growth is destroying nature, 150 countries warn

#175

Post by numitus »

eliaspro wrote: post #7
philipallstar wrote: post #2

> European Union members have signed off on a report that warns focusing on unchecked economic growth is contributing to the destruction of global biodiversity It would be good to know which members of the EU are currently experiencing unchecked economic growth.

It's not so much about which countries actually grow that much right now, but which mindset underpins the political and medial discourse, trying to get those countries "back on track for continuous growth" or whether there's some realization, that infinite growth as fundamental principle just isn't what we all should be aiming for anymore.

[dead]

Re: Obsession with growth is destroying nature, 150 countries warn

#176

Post by akramachamarei »

jstanley wrote: post #132
ericmcer wrote: post #128

What are we trying to achieve as a species? If we can't answer that question then we can't really judge our actions effectively. If we view humanity as the most intelligent life form not just on the planet, but in the entire universe, then we are the only source of order in an infinite chaos. All of reality is just entropy and mindless cruelty except for humanity. Viewed in that lens we almost have a duty to expand b…

> What are we trying to achieve as a species? How often can a group of even 3 people come up with one thing that they're trying to achieve? You're not going to get consensus on what the goal is for humanity. > If we view humanity as the most intelligent life form not just on the planet, but in the entire universe, then we are the only source of order in an infinite chaos. That doesn't follow at all! And even if it di…

> why stop at the species level?

The stop isn't made at the species level, but at the intelligence gap. The gap between Tao and a random uneducated, malnourished human is nothing compared to that between the latter and any other animal known to science, or of course to the stones and flame occupying the rest of space.

Re: Obsession with growth is destroying nature, 150 countries warn

#177

Post by graemep »

pjmlp wrote: post #170
graemep wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe they know about Malthus saying the same thing and being proven wrong? We have had millennia of exponential growth. Slower in the past, and positive over the long term for a long time (since the bronze age collapse at a global level?). Technological advance allows growth that is far higher than increases in resource usage. We often do the same thing on far lower resources than it used to take - sometimes far bet…

The people at the layoffs side when growth doesn't meet the exponential quarter targets, or destroyed villages to build a few hotel chains that deplet water banks for their golf fields, haven't noticed it.

A real problem, but a different one. Bad decisions, bad government, bad distribution of resources. It does not alter the underlying trend which is better for the vast majority of people.

Re: Obsession with growth is destroying nature, 150 countries warn

#178

Post by Aurornis »

pfdietz wrote: post #155
disconcision wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

we had nearly 2 centuries of roughly exponential growth. ended in the 60s but not everyone got the memo

Is "roughly exponential growth" being used as a synonym for "growth"? Exponential is used as a scare word. It's not just growth, it's exponential growth! Run and scream in fright! Because if you don't do what I say you must do, we are exponentially doomed. Dooooomed!

I've done enough computer science work to be afraid of exponential growth.

Re: Obsession with growth is destroying nature, 150 countries warn

#179

Post by adrian_b »

delegate wrote: post #84

When I was a child, I was spending my summers at my grandparents. They had a cozy house in the village. They worked the land, they had a few animals. They grew their food. They sold some wine and fruit at the market. They had a big house, land, clean air, clean water and they were healthy. They celebrated the holidays, had many friends, went to church, weddings, funerals, etc. Villagers always greeted them and stoppe…

What you describe also matches exactly my grandparents.

Moreover, I also encounter the same problems in the big city where I work and live.

Hard to be optimistic.

Re: Obsession with growth is destroying nature, 150 countries warn

#180

Post by pfdietz »

disconcision wrote: post #171
pfdietz wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is "roughly exponential growth" being used as a synonym for "growth"? Exponential is used as a scare word. It's not just growth, it's exponential growth! Run and scream in fright! Because if you don't do what I say you must do, we are exponentially doomed. Dooooomed!

i can't speak for everyone, but in the above assertion am using 'roughly exponential' to mean that world population between say 1880 and 1960 followed a curve that is, roughly, exponential, in the technical sense. much of the discourse 50 years ago, e.g. the population bomb, was predicated on this observation.

Rough is doing heavy lifting there, so much so that I suggest it doesn't have any meaning except to say the population was growing. The growth from 1980 to 1960 certainly was not exponential: the percentage growth per year was all over the place, varying on the same time scale as the doubling time (or even faster).

https://ourworldindata.org/cdn-cgi/imagedelivery/qLq-8BTgXU8...

I suspect it's not a coincidence that the population bomb scare occurred right after the collapse of European colonialism, although teasing out the causation could be interesting.

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