Your phone is an entire computer • Hacker News Board

Re: Your phone is an entire computer

#171

Post by beeflet » Fri, Mar 13, 2026, 9:29 PM UTC

dotancohen wrote: post #152

Aurornis wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I still remember the era when jailbreaking Android and iPhones was gaining popularity among less technical people. It was eye opening to watch how many people I knew would search for a random web page and then unquestioningly follow instructions on the screen to install software from the first link they clicked. All of this to get custom fonts in their messaging app or some other little feature they saw on someone’s…

The Linux community settled very quickly on the model of a Linux distribution, distributed via FTP, as a safe place to acquire on OS. Some got very popular. Is there anything like that in the Android world? I'd love an alternative Android distro the supports writing notes with the S-Pen from the lockscreen. Where does one find such a thing?

There are AOSP-based distros like grapheneOS and calyxOS with various "app stores" like fdroid that behave similar to package managers on linux. There are also just run-linux-on-your-smartphone distros like postmarketOS. I doubt stylus integration is good in either.

Re: Your phone is an entire computer

#172

Post by twelvedogs » Fri, Mar 13, 2026, 9:34 PM UTC

purplehat_ wrote: post #91

I really don't understand the argument here. That the product is locked down by design is a feature, not a limitation. Yes, this has the side effect of making them more money and allowing a walled garden to form, but given that the vast majority of users wouldn't do anything different with their phones if a shell was present, this is in my opinion not that large of an effect. The snide around "clicking on links is da…

If it was easy I would expect 5-10% if people would probably do it, much like alternate desktop installs

This would mean millions of devices

You mention Graphene is more secure so what exactly am I gaining from not being able to install it other than my phone being trash once it's out of support

Re: Your phone is an entire computer

#173

Post by beeflet » Fri, Mar 13, 2026, 9:36 PM UTC

ifh-hn wrote: post #169

This reads like Stockholm syndrome, like there's no other option but being held prisoner by apple.

Fabrication of microchips is based on massive economies of scale. Thanks to apple, the majority of top-of-the-line microchips are going into locked-down computers. What happens when Apple or similar companies control 90% of the market, and you are paying exorbitant prices for crappy microchips in exchange for the privilege of running user-controlled software?

A decade or two ago, Intel introduced the Intel Management Engine to new computer processors. Their competitors followed suit. The market has stopped making products without these trusted computing "features" a long time ago. Eventually, you stop being able to choose.

These are the consequences of a computer market led by consumers that don't understand computers. The invisible hand is legally blind.

Re: Your phone is an entire computer

#174

Post by AlotOfReading » Fri, Mar 13, 2026, 9:38 PM UTC

ianburrell wrote: post #162

AlotOfReading wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Imagine an executive placing their phone on a magnetic dock as they sit down, which automagically connects to the screen and gives them access to everything they were doing before. Also easy to imagine a university computer lab where everyone brings their own compute and IT doesn't have to manage physical desktops. I'm skeptical that there's "no demand" for that kind of functionality rather than a lack of good implem…

Imagine executive tapping their phone down on reader, and it pops up everything they were doing, and they get to keep using their phone. The first flaw in the idea is that computing is cheap. You can make a computer the size of a phone for people to carry around, that has been tried but failed. The second flaw is that everything is in the cloud, only developers and offline need local access to their files. The cloud…

You can make a computer the size of a phone. That's what the latest macbook neo is. The rest of the space inside is battery and peripherals. I'm not sure what cloud has to do with this discussion.

Re: keep using phone, that's exactly what's already possible with CarPlay and AA.

Re: Your phone is an entire computer

#175

Post by amelius » Fri, Mar 13, 2026, 9:39 PM UTC

purplehat_ wrote: post #91

I really don't understand the argument here. That the product is locked down by design is a feature, not a limitation. Yes, this has the side effect of making them more money and allowing a walled garden to form, but given that the vast majority of users wouldn't do anything different with their phones if a shell was present, this is in my opinion not that large of an effect. The snide around "clicking on links is da…

> That the product is locked down by design is a feature, not a limitation.

And why should the entity locking down the design be the same entity as the one selling it? Is that a feature too?

You can't imagine a world where people can install different services by different providers to protect their devices? And have some actual competition? And therefore choice?

Re: Your phone is an entire computer

#176

Post by beeflet » Fri, Mar 13, 2026, 9:42 PM UTC

xyzzy_plugh wrote: post #85

fragmede wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is and there isn't. Your phone, almost certainly, with a shorter list of exceptions than not, has a locked bootloader and consequently cannot run unsigned software with full permissions without additional work. Sometimes that work is impossible to do. In terms of capabilities, sure, your phone is as capable, if not more capable than a desktop computer from a decade or two ago. The phone in my hand that I'm writ…

You are conflating many things here. A locked bootloader does not imply you cannot run unsigned software in user space . There are also many phones that do allow you to unlock the bootloader. I have a drawer full of them. Finally, the ability to allow you to unlock your phone bootloader or to run custom firmware has nothing to do with the silicon. It's a software choice. The trusted software could most certainly deci…

>A locked bootloader does not imply you cannot run unsigned software in user space.

In the long term it does because the purpose is to provide the scaffolding for remote attestation. Once remote attestation becomes the norm, it transitions into becoming a de-facto requirement for doing pretty much anything in the real world. Today, banking apps. Tomorrow, getting past the cloudflare turnstyle. The next day, everything.

Re: Your phone is an entire computer

#177

Post by why_at » Fri, Mar 13, 2026, 9:45 PM UTC

microtonal wrote: post #130

tomComb wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The pixels all ship with unlocked bootloaders.

Just nitpicking: unlockable bootloaders. The bootloader is locked by default. But you can unlock it without needing Google. Additionally, Pixels support a Linux VM and has a desktop mode (I'm running GrapheneOS, it may still be that these features have to be enabled through the developer settings).

And even with this there are still apps which require hardware attestation and won't work on alternative operating systems.

Re: Your phone is an entire computer

#178

Post by samrus » Fri, Mar 13, 2026, 9:45 PM UTC

purplehat_ wrote: post #91

I really don't understand the argument here. That the product is locked down by design is a feature, not a limitation. Yes, this has the side effect of making them more money and allowing a walled garden to form, but given that the vast majority of users wouldn't do anything different with their phones if a shell was present, this is in my opinion not that large of an effect. The snide around "clicking on links is da…

> That the product is locked down by design is a feature, not a limitation.

> Yes, this has the side effect of making them more money and allowing a walled garden to form

Come on now. This is so naive. Why not lock your computer down too? If its so proconsumerist

Re: Your phone is an entire computer

#179

Post by Magnusmaster » Fri, Mar 13, 2026, 9:50 PM UTC

purplehat_ wrote: post #91

I really don't understand the argument here. That the product is locked down by design is a feature, not a limitation. Yes, this has the side effect of making them more money and allowing a walled garden to form, but given that the vast majority of users wouldn't do anything different with their phones if a shell was present, this is in my opinion not that large of an effect. The snide around "clicking on links is da…

Problem is a lot of apps require a locked-down device. You can't use a phone that isn't locked down in most of the world. And it will spread to PCs eventually.

Re: Your phone is an entire computer

#180

Post by benoau » Fri, Mar 13, 2026, 9:52 PM UTC

purplehat_ wrote: post #111

throwaway27448 wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I understood this stance more 10 years ago, but now we have many layers of fairly well documented exploit tactics and none of them rely on the app store. However forcing users to use an app store was supposed to benefit us has clearly failed. And, somehow, the indignity of being forced into paying apple a 30% tax for a market they wholly own never comes up alongside other paternalistic arguments....

Can you elaborate on "fairly well documented exploit tactics"? My impression is that most of these are either social engineering, for which we need to hire better designers, or complicated chains of hard-to-find primitives only accessible to state actors. There's definitely problems but the solution isn't to make the iPhone a general purpose computer. We definitely need to defend the existence of general purpose comp…

> the promise of the App Store is "pay a 30% tax and any app you download here will be safe."

Apple, who revealed in court that they enjoy a 75% profit margin on that fee, is being sued for that promise being false advertising on account of the crypto scams they keep approving.

https://9to5mac.com/2025/06/19/class-action-suit-app-store-c...

Stemming from the case where Apple revealed their 75% profit margin on these fees, Apple was referred for criminal investigation for illegally forcing everyone to pay that fee violating a court order to ensure they get it and then lying to a judge about it.

https://daringfireball.net/2025/04/gonzales_rogers_apple_app...

They are also being questioned in the EU to ascertain whether they are doing enough to stop the proliferation of scams on the App Store.

https://9to5mac.com/2025/09/23/apple-under-legal-scrutiny-in...

They are even facing a RICO case for their role distributing and profiting from illegal gambling apps.

https://readwrite.com/apple-google-rico-lawsuit-sweepstakes-...