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The Wyden Siren Goes Off Again: We’ll Be “Stunned” By What the NSA Is Doing

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Re: The Wyden Siren Goes Off Again: We’ll Be “Stunned” By What the NSA Is Doing

#171

Post by Hizonner »

themafia wrote: post #95
Hizonner wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They can remove him from all his committees, including the ones that give him access to this stuff to begin with. If they really work at it, they can freeze him out to the point where he can't get anything done on this or any other issue. And they can use him revealing the information as an excuse to avoid blowback from their own constituents. It's not as bad as in the House, but it's pretty bad. Oh, and they can pro…

> and they can probably deprive him of the floor the second he starts to say anything "interesting". So, move the show off the floor, never has it been easier to reach the population as an individual. Are the citizens that enraptured by "the floor" as it is? It seems to me, that if you were serious, this would be no problem at all. > there are serious problems with the way Congress is organized None of that is dictat…

> So, move the show off the floor, never has it been easier to reach the population as an individual. Are the citizens that enraptured by "the floor" as it is?

Nope, but his immunity from prosecution for disclosing classified information only applies during Congressional debate. Once he takes it off "the floor", they can just arrest him.

Re: The Wyden Siren Goes Off Again: We’ll Be “Stunned” By What the NSA Is Doing

#172

Post by array_key_first »

tptacek wrote: post #125
array_key_first wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That most people have a simplistic, naive, and child-like perspective of the world. One based on just-desserts, on causality, on fairness. You see, there are good people and bad people. Giving the good people more tools is always good, because they're good people. If you're a good person, you need not worry either. Bad things don't happen to good people. Cops are good guys, criminals are bad guys. The government figh…

He didn't say any of these things. If you have to make a caricature of his arguments to so much as address them, what does that say about the strength of your own argument?

Yes, he did.

"A frightening number of people swallow every lie a cop tells them" - I'm answering why that happens.

It's the just world fallacy, and it's very common. Nothing I'm saying is meant to be mind blowing or offensive.

Re: The Wyden Siren Goes Off Again: We’ll Be “Stunned” By What the NSA Is Doing

#173

Post by tptacek »

array_key_first wrote: post #172
tptacek wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He didn't say any of these things. If you have to make a caricature of his arguments to so much as address them, what does that say about the strength of your own argument?

Yes, he did. "A frightening number of people swallow every lie a cop tells them" - I'm answering why that happens. It's the just world fallacy, and it's very common. Nothing I'm saying is meant to be mind blowing or offensive.

It's not offensive, it's just having a boring, trivial conversation with someone who isn't present on the thread. Nobody is here to defend the just world fallacy. Have at it, I guess.

Re: The Wyden Siren Goes Off Again: We’ll Be “Stunned” By What the NSA Is Doing

#174

Post by harry8 »

fsflover wrote: post #165
harry8 wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The misguided who say they don’t need privacy suddenly have a dense memory of the thousands of times they’ve turned the lock on a bathroom door and consider the idea of deficating in full view as an alternative. The meaning is to highlight the incredible silliness of the “nothing to hide” skawkers who sound like so many Soviet propagandists.

This is completely missing the point of why one needs privacy. Lack of it harms journalism and activism, making the government too powerful and not accountable. If only activists and journalists will try to have the privacy, it will be much easier to target them. Everyone should have privacy to protect them. Thus is what Snowden probably meant, not bathrooms.

If you think the benefit of privacy to society and individuals is limited to activists, jounrnalists and providing them cover you might have missed the point yourself. The sheer number of distinct benefits flowing from privacy make the "nothing to hide" argument utterly absurd to anyone capable of thought.

Re: The Wyden Siren Goes Off Again: We’ll Be “Stunned” By What the NSA Is Doing

#175

Post by LorenPechtel »

thaumasiotes wrote: post #133
LorenPechtel wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Being married to someone with the same name could be very confusing!

How?

Responding to someone talking to your partner. Or who is the message for?

Re: The Wyden Siren Goes Off Again: We’ll Be “Stunned” By What the NSA Is Doing

#176

Post by fsflover »

harry8 wrote: post #174
fsflover wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is completely missing the point of why one needs privacy. Lack of it harms journalism and activism, making the government too powerful and not accountable. If only activists and journalists will try to have the privacy, it will be much easier to target them. Everyone should have privacy to protect them. Thus is what Snowden probably meant, not bathrooms.

If you think the benefit of privacy to society and individuals is limited to activists, jounrnalists and providing them cover you might have missed the point yourself. The sheer number of distinct benefits flowing from privacy make the "nothing to hide" argument utterly absurd to anyone capable of thought.

What are other benefits for people who don't really care? I could never convince such people of the importance of privacy.

Re: The Wyden Siren Goes Off Again: We’ll Be “Stunned” By What the NSA Is Doing

#177

Post by harry8 »

fsflover wrote: post #176
harry8 wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you think the benefit of privacy to society and individuals is limited to activists, jounrnalists and providing them cover you might have missed the point yourself. The sheer number of distinct benefits flowing from privacy make the "nothing to hide" argument utterly absurd to anyone capable of thought.

What are other benefits for people who don't really care? I could never convince such people of the importance of privacy.

Democracy depends on a secret ballot. Start there.

Then move on to the fact that not every govt employee is honest. Some will be involved in organised crime. What about your family do you not want organised crime to know? Do you trust everyone in the government who might encounter you today? Do you trust everyone who might encounter you next year? In 10 years time? 20 years? Gotta trust them all!

The rule of law exists, in part, so that the strongest does not always get their way. Do you trust your insurance company and their outsourced contractors with knowing everything about your family when they refuse to pay your legitimate claim and you have to go to court? They have vastly more resources than you already.

There's plenty more, think them through.

By the time you have it that these people who don't care, they also don't want to be naked in the street or have their children be naked in public, do want freedom and democracy rather than soviet style tyranny, and don't want to be effectively targeted by criminals... If you need to continue, it's a lost cause and you're dealing with bad faith or total un-fixable idiocy.

Re: The Wyden Siren Goes Off Again: We’ll Be “Stunned” By What the NSA Is Doing

#178

Post by fsflover »

harry8 wrote: post #177
fsflover wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What are other benefits for people who don't really care? I could never convince such people of the importance of privacy.

Democracy depends on a secret ballot. Start there. Then move on to the fact that not every govt employee is honest. Some will be involved in organised crime. What about your family do you not want organised crime to know? Do you trust everyone in the government who might encounter you today? Do you trust everyone who might encounter you next year? In 10 years time? 20 years? Gotta trust them all! The rule of law exis…

Thank you, good list.

Re: The Wyden Siren Goes Off Again: We’ll Be “Stunned” By What the NSA Is Doing

#179

Post by harry8 »

fsflover wrote: post #178
harry8 wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Democracy depends on a secret ballot. Start there. Then move on to the fact that not every govt employee is honest. Some will be involved in organised crime. What about your family do you not want organised crime to know? Do you trust everyone in the government who might encounter you today? Do you trust everyone who might encounter you next year? In 10 years time? 20 years? Gotta trust them all! The rule of law exis…

Thank you, good list.

Very far from exhaustive.
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