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US Court of Appeals: TOS may be updated by email, use can imply consent [pdf]

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Re: US Court of Appeals: TOS may be updated by email, use can imply consent [pdf]

#171

Post by dinowars »

lstodd wrote: post #122
carefree-bob wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The other side of this is that companies do want to change their T&C from time to time, so what do they do, force you to quit and then sign up again? That adds a lot of friction. Or do they tag things and say "Customer X signed up on this date, so he is bound by T&C number 12, whereas this other customer signed up a year later and is bound by T&C number 13". That seems unwieldy since there is a common infrastructure.…

I'm still on a contract from 2016 or so with my mobile (cell) operator. 10 years of inflation, I pay basically nothing for some occassional data use and more voice than I could ever use. Of course it irks them much to not be able to sell me less for more. But they can't do anything short of disconnecting me and that is unspeakable for a mobile operator. I like this very much.

I used to have a good deal for years at Orange. They tried to get me on a new contract (slightly expensive) for a while, but at some point they just decommissioned the old program, basically they cancelled the old contracts and migrated everyone to the new plan. It was a minor change to me so went with it, then later they started to hike prices on the new plan, eventually I cancelled and left them after about 20 years.

Re: US Court of Appeals: TOS may be updated by email, use can imply consent [pdf]

#172

Post by mv4 »

impossiblefork wrote: post #64
bradley13 wrote: post #24

IMHO the problem is allowing changes to terms and conditions for existing contracts. If I have a contract with a company, that contract was made under existing T&C. The company should not be able to change those conditions without my explicit permission. Denying me service if I disagree should not be a valid option. I get this periodically on our overly-computerized car: Here are new T&C, click yes to agree. You can…

Here in Sweden the thing that makes something a contract is that you can't change it-- that it has definite provisions that have been agreed and that both parties actually expect the other to hold up their part. The US breaking its contract law to treat non-contracts as contracts is one of the most insane things I've seen a legal system do to itself.

Wondering how Spotify is handling this issue

https://newsroom.spotify.com/2025-09-24/spotify-terms-creato...

Re: US Court of Appeals: TOS may be updated by email, use can imply consent [pdf]

#173

Post by Forgeties79 »

shirro wrote: post #166

There are so many advantages to turning off and disconnecting these days. Avoiding TOS is just a small part. There are too many demands on our attention and our wallets and most of us aren't getting more money or time. I cancelled all the family's streaming services in 2025. Everyone adapted. It turns out a lot of things we are told we need, we really don't. People lived without them as recently as a few years ago. A…

I canceled all of our subscriptions about two years ago and set up a Plex server. I don’t love the direction Plex is going in so I’m teeing up to flip to Jellyfin, but still, it has been so much better than dealing with all of these companies and nonsense.

I feel like we can’t even call it “advertising“ anymore. It’s such a misnomer. It’s basically data fracking and psychological warfare to make us all into little addicts. This whole industry built around chasing “the attention economy” is a social blight.

Re: US Court of Appeals: TOS may be updated by email, use can imply consent [pdf]

#174

Post by doubled112 »

LunaSea wrote: post #128
miohtama wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not allowing to criticize is practically a law in some European countries https://ppc.land/german-businesses-systematically-delete-cri...

And the US with Oracle famously making it illegal to benchmark the performance of their database.

Didn't Atlassian have a clause in their TOS where you weren't allowed to discuss the performance of their cloud?

Re: US Court of Appeals: TOS may be updated by email, use can imply consent [pdf]

#175

Post by nickorlow »

bell-cot wrote: post #158
PetriCasserole wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know I'd be listening intently if I were on the jury. I'm a "sauce good for the goose is good for the gander" kind of guy.

> ... if I were on the jury. ... Too bad that v1.0 of the ToS their victims "sign" forced all disputes into their lap-dog arbitration system.

My new ToS I sent them allows me to appoint anyone (including my self) as the arbiter.

Re: US Court of Appeals: TOS may be updated by email, use can imply consent [pdf]

#176

Post by nickorlow »

lesuorac wrote: post #68
exmadscientist wrote: post #12

For those not familiar with US appeals courts, this is an unpublished order, which means that it's (broadly speaking; there are subtleties) not precedent and applies to this case alone.

Isn't the fact that it applies to _any_ case precedent? Like if you're a lawyer and you read this do you go "My client will never win a case like this?" or do you go "we should go to trial"? Sure you won't get summary judgement but if the courts rule this way once they can rule this way again.

A case like this is still theoretically winnable, different courts have different opinions, and higher level courts have yet to weigh in

Re: US Court of Appeals: TOS may be updated by email, use can imply consent [pdf]

#177

Post by juleiie »

shirro wrote: post #166

There are so many advantages to turning off and disconnecting these days. Avoiding TOS is just a small part. There are too many demands on our attention and our wallets and most of us aren't getting more money or time. I cancelled all the family's streaming services in 2025. Everyone adapted. It turns out a lot of things we are told we need, we really don't. People lived without them as recently as a few years ago. A…

I don’t live in US or five eyes so I pirate all the stuff basically Scot free.

I understand that it’s not so easy for Americans whose internet activity is constantly scrutinized. I’ve had the privilege of choosing exactly who and what I pay.

I usually don’t subscribe to any streaming service, but when I do choose to pay for something, my money goes to smaller entities that I don’t actively want to see fail.

In my book, none of the Hollywood deserves a single cent. It’s an amazing feeling to be in the power to dictate this.

Re: US Court of Appeals: TOS may be updated by email, use can imply consent [pdf]

#178

Post by 05 »

juleiie wrote: post #177
shirro wrote: post #166

There are so many advantages to turning off and disconnecting these days. Avoiding TOS is just a small part. There are too many demands on our attention and our wallets and most of us aren't getting more money or time. I cancelled all the family's streaming services in 2025. Everyone adapted. It turns out a lot of things we are told we need, we really don't. People lived without them as recently as a few years ago. A…

I don’t live in US or five eyes so I pirate all the stuff basically Scot free. I understand that it’s not so easy for Americans whose internet activity is constantly scrutinized. I’ve had the privilege of choosing exactly who and what I pay. I usually don’t subscribe to any streaming service, but when I do choose to pay for something, my money goes to smaller entities that I don’t actively want to see fail. In my boo…

Surely even the poorest of Americans can pay a couple bux a month for a seedbox?

Re: US Court of Appeals: TOS may be updated by email, use can imply consent [pdf]

#179

Post by hananova »

krickelkrackel wrote: post #77

Even if it makes things overly complicated sometimes, I like the EU style that forces companies to make people actively confirm their consent, and puts the 'inform' part of 'informed consent' into the company's responsibility.

Yeah. I enjoy the modern trend of not even showing the EULA on the screen where you agree to it. Those will all be so easy to get thrown out if they ever become a problem.

Re: US Court of Appeals: TOS may be updated by email, use can imply consent [pdf]

#180

Post by [deleted] »

dathinab wrote: post #98

If "usage imply consent" then couldn't you just write unpleasant TOS updates so that they end up in the spam filter and then argue the user complied. sending email + user using does not in any sane way guarantee that the user did even know about it and if usage implies consent how do you even delete you account if you disagree with contract changes, as that requires logging in which can easily be maliciously seen as…

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