Why can't you tune your guitar? (2019) • Hacker News Board

Re: Why can't you tune your guitar? (2019)

#171

Post by thaumasiotes » Mon, Mar 09, 2026, 8:03 PM UTC

dahart wrote: post #64

For some reason it’s taken me decades of playing guitar to become good enough at tuning and also sensitive enough to really feel the fact that I can’t tune the guitar. Recently I finally grokked the simple reason that 12 TET cannot be perfect, and it doesn’t take a long article to see it. I was kind-of aware of the major third problem, but I naively thought fifths were still perfect. A 12 TET chromatic is 2^(1/12), a…

> A 12 TET chromatic is 2^(1/12), and a 12 TET fifth would be 2^(7/12). A perfect fifth is a 3:2 ratio. Those numbers are slightly different, and that’s enough to understand it.

Note this this is normally called the "Pythagorean comma".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pythagorean_comma

Re: Why can't you tune your guitar? (2019)

#172

Post by otabdeveloper4 » Mon, Mar 09, 2026, 8:10 PM UTC

PaulDavisThe1st wrote: post #170

otabdeveloper4 wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No it isn't. You can hear integer pitch ratios in the same way you can see, e.g., the difference between a square and a rectangle or between a circle and an oval.

But more than 90% of all the written-composed music from western Europe and North America (at minimum) over the last several centuries does not use integer pitch ratios .

Yes, that's indeed what the TFA is about.

Re: Why can't you tune your guitar? (2019)

#173

Post by bashkiddie » Mon, Mar 09, 2026, 8:42 PM UTC

> Why can’t you tune your guitar?

You can.

(1) Movable frets https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EZC69A8TsJ8

(2) No frets https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=92TxCGBNEVg

(3) force the string sideways to a higher pitch https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kbALdNDhKYE&list=RDkbALdNDhK...

But the long answer is: It will stay out of tune for a given definition of "in tune", because there is no perfect string. A perfect string has a diameter of zero.

> The math of harmonics is really simple

If a string only had harmonics on it, the oscilation would form a stationary wave that never leaves the string and resonates between bridge and head. It is the non-harmonics that create the sound.

A sound is made of a base frequency and overtones. Overtones are never perfect multiples of the base frequency, because they are influenced by

(1) string length

(2) material bending stiffness

Because of bending stiffness, overtones have a lower frequency than their theoretical haromnics.

> The second harmonic is the one you get from the string vibrating in halves.

True in theory, false in practice due to bending stiffness.

> Guitars can’t be perfectly in tune

I don't see why. Overtone series are impossible to solve, but base frequencies can be tuned to your liking.

Re: Why can't you tune your guitar? (2019)

#174

Post by recursive » Mon, Mar 09, 2026, 9:14 PM UTC

semitones wrote: post #76

fun fact: some bands, like red hot chilli peppers, will tune the G string slightly flat such that major thirds become just, for some of their riffs. Listen to "scar tissue" for example

John Frusciante claims this case was originally unintentional. https://www.guitarworld.com/news/john-frusciante-paul-davids...

Re: Why can't you tune your guitar? (2019)

#175

Post by dahart » Tue, Mar 10, 2026, 2:00 AM UTC

52-6F-62 wrote: post #167

dahart wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many musicians can readily confirm that the difference between temperaments can be felt and heard by trained ears. A guitar tuned to equal temperament has major thirds that warble audibly. It feels different when you use just intonation, which isn’t generally possible on a guitar.

Indeed. But this is the guitar's design! Fixed temperament. There are many variations and other instruments that explicitly make that aspect of the instrument variable. There are even branches off of Spanish guitar design that use movable frets for that reason. But fixed temperament and that warble/etc IS guitar.

Mmm no, that’s getting history and the causal relationships a bit backward. The early guitars, like their predecessors (lutes), all had moveable frets, and their designers were trying to figure out how to fret various other tuning systems before 12-TET became the standard:

https://scholarworks.iu.edu/iuswrrest/api/core/bitstreams/5c...

Some lute players were arguing in favor of equal temperament, and others were arguing against. It took a long time, but equal temperament eventually won, and the guitar we have today is the result of European music settling on equal temperament in general, not just for lutes, but for keyboards and ensembles. The guitar is fixed and fretted for 12-TET for the same reason the piano is tuned for 12-TET, because that’s the best compromise for all musicians. Guitar wasn’t designed to add warble, it evolved along with other instruments to support enharmonic modulation, which requires allowing a little warble. If we could have guitars without the warble, we would.

Re: Why can't you tune your guitar? (2019)

#176

Post by dahart » Tue, Mar 10, 2026, 2:07 AM UTC

thaumasiotes wrote: post #171

dahart wrote: post #64

For some reason it’s taken me decades of playing guitar to become good enough at tuning and also sensitive enough to really feel the fact that I can’t tune the guitar. Recently I finally grokked the simple reason that 12 TET cannot be perfect, and it doesn’t take a long article to see it. I was kind-of aware of the major third problem, but I naively thought fifths were still perfect. A 12 TET chromatic is 2^(1/12), a…

> A 12 TET chromatic is 2^(1/12), and a 12 TET fifth would be 2^(7/12). A perfect fifth is a 3:2 ratio. Those numbers are slightly different, and that’s enough to understand it. Note this this is normally called the "Pythagorean comma". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pythagorean_comma

Yes, thanks! And that article points at the “problem” setup in the article: the syntonic or diatonic comma, or the discrepancy between four stacked perfect fifths and two octaves plus a major third.

I like how the Pythagorean comma simplifies to 3^12 / 2^19 - pure powers of three vs pure powers of two. That makes it so obvious (to me anyway) why we can’t have perfect fifths.

Re: Why can't you tune your guitar? (2019)

#177

Post by dagmx » Tue, Mar 10, 2026, 2:21 AM UTC

busterarm wrote: post #163

dagmx wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This feels like a really puritanical take on things. Fanned frets and multiscale absolutely help with the playability of an instrument. It’s physics, there’s nothing mystical or gimmicky about it. Maybe YOU don’t want it, but it prevents strings from going flabby without needing much heavier gauges. Which does help with a wide range of playing styles and genres. Unless you also believe that all guitars should have a…

Building multiscale means more work to build which means higher prices and more complex repairs. A reasonable jump in work/cost for marginally better playability. Also more things for the builder to fuck up and get wrong. That's kinda normal though, there's a lot of terribly-built instruments on the market and a lot of customers who can't even tell (e.g., people still buying Gibson despite decades of everyone saying…

So you’ve gone from saying it’s a gimmick to saying it’s not worth the cost. Do you even have a cogent argument here other than anything you don’t like doesn’t make sense to you?.

There are tons of poorly made strat or les Paul like guitars too so are they also not worth making? Hell let’s just take off all bells and whistles from guitars by your logic, what’s the point of more than one pickup or floating bridges. Let’s go back to fret less guitars because that’s also one less thing for luthiers to mess up, and then you get rid of fret buzz for all those guitarists you say can’t set up their guitars.

You might as well just say that you personally don’t like them and leave it at that. The rest is just an unfounded world salad or projection.

Re: Why can't you tune your guitar? (2019)

#178

Post by busterarm » Tue, Mar 10, 2026, 3:02 AM UTC

dagmx wrote: post #177

busterarm wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Building multiscale means more work to build which means higher prices and more complex repairs. A reasonable jump in work/cost for marginally better playability. Also more things for the builder to fuck up and get wrong. That's kinda normal though, there's a lot of terribly-built instruments on the market and a lot of customers who can't even tell (e.g., people still buying Gibson despite decades of everyone saying…

So you’ve gone from saying it’s a gimmick to saying it’s not worth the cost. Do you even have a cogent argument here other than anything you don’t like doesn’t make sense to you?. There are tons of poorly made strat or les Paul like guitars too so are they also not worth making? Hell let’s just take off all bells and whistles from guitars by your logic, what’s the point of more than one pickup or floating bridges. Le…

No I'm assuming that most people on this board don't play exotic varieties of guitar and I'm trying to help people avoid any strange delusions like they might need these things to sound better on their instrument.

That's already enough of a problem on online guitar boards... Also I can speak from experience. I was one of the first maybe half-dozen people to buy a TT neck outside of Sweden. I knew Anders and spoke to him occasionally. I'm saying that if you have a need for it, you already know it and know why. And if you don't, you almost certainly do not need it.

And that goes for _most_ things that aren't really basic common features on your guitar. That's why things like the Babicz bridge or Kubicki Factor headstock drop-tuner aren't uniquitous. Or even the way Strandberg or Parker used to build guitars. There's hundreds of these kind of things and the marketing for all of them tells you they're the greatest thing since sliced bread and will sound as good as _insert guitar god name here_. At least a Parker Fly has resale value...most of these things don't.

And lots of dumb/pointless trends happen! Stupidly pointless neck lamination is still a big one. I remember laughing my first time seeing 11 or 13-piece laminated necks on plain vanilla 6 string Jacksons (particularly coming out of Indonesia) a decade or so ago. It's still stupid and unnecessary. Buyers should be looking for the fewest pieces of wood that still sound good and remain stable in their guitar...but hyper-laminated necks was the trend...

Re: Why can't you tune your guitar? (2019)

#179

Post by dhosek » Tue, Mar 10, 2026, 5:00 AM UTC

mnw21cam wrote: post #151

dhosek wrote: post #137

Instruments which have a non-discrete set of pitches (as well as voices) will tend towards the more harmonious (so to speak) tuning when playing in harmony. You’ll notice this in choirs, for example, where singing a capella, the chords will follow nice integral ratios of frequencies. Fretless string instruments and the trombone are obvious cases of instruments which can do micro-tuning, but it’s worth noting that bra…

Brass instruments have a finger loop on the third valve loop, but it's not primarily for adjusting to just temperament. Most brass instruments have three valves. The first lowers the pitch by a tone. The second lowers the pitch by a semitone. The third lowers the pitch by a tone and a half. If you need to lower the pitch by two tones, then you press the second and third valves at the same time, and that works fine. H…

And this is why I never rose above being a mediocre tubist.

Re: Why can't you tune your guitar? (2019)

#180

Post by dagmx » Tue, Mar 10, 2026, 5:53 AM UTC

busterarm wrote: post #178

dagmx wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you’ve gone from saying it’s a gimmick to saying it’s not worth the cost. Do you even have a cogent argument here other than anything you don’t like doesn’t make sense to you?. There are tons of poorly made strat or les Paul like guitars too so are they also not worth making? Hell let’s just take off all bells and whistles from guitars by your logic, what’s the point of more than one pickup or floating bridges. Le…

No I'm assuming that most people on this board don't play exotic varieties of guitar and I'm trying to help people avoid any strange delusions like they might need these things to sound better on their instrument. That's already enough of a problem on online guitar boards... Also I can speak from experience. I was one of the first maybe half-dozen people to buy a TT neck outside of Sweden. I knew Anders and spoke to…

This is just pointless gatekeeping. You have an arbitrary subjective taste and have decided that anything outside of it is stupid without actually understanding what you dislike and why others might want it.

Laminated necks again provide quite a bit of rigidity and stability against warpage. This is again just physics, there’s nothing mystical to it. There’s limits to how much a truss rod can do by itself. Wood moves, any wood worker will tell as much and will tell you how to counter act warping by joining opposing wood grains or having stiffener pieces.

I’m very suspect of whether you actually understand the physicality of instruments, anyone who has built an instrument (as I have) will know what you’re saying is ill informed.

And just because a basic guitar is enough for most people, that doesn’t mean there aren’t a significant number of people here who can’t appreciate higher levels of craftsmanship. For you to think otherwise is basically just elitism.

Anyway it’s apparent that you are at in your ways and can’t articulate an argument as to why you think something isn’t worth it. You still haven’t provided a single shred of principled argument beyond just proclaiming your opinion as truth.

Enjoy playing your slabs and looking down on everyone else. I’m sure you have great taste in instruments but I hope you can understand that your tastes are subjective and there are tons of incredibly talented luthiers out there who would disagree with your portrayal of instruments.