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India's top court angry after junior judge cites fake AI-generated orders

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Re: India's top court angry after junior judge cites fake AI-generated orders

#171

Post by mminer237 »

raincole wrote: post #60
AJ007 wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This whole thing is silly, LLMs can automate reference validation. If someone is a lawyer, accountant, doctor, teacher, surgeon, engineer etc, and is regurgitating answers that were pumped out with with GPT-5-extra-low or whatever mediocre throttled model they are using, they should just be fired and de-credentialed. Right now this is easy. The real problem is ahead: 99.999% of future content that exists will be made…

> Right now this is easy. Easy? In the US you need house impeachment to fire a judge. In some countries judges are completely immune unless they are sentenced for crimes.

To fire a federal judge. Local judges, which are the vast majority, can be fired by their colleagues or replaced in elections.

Re: India's top court angry after junior judge cites fake AI-generated orders

#172

Post by blackoil »

AlotOfReading wrote: post #104
general_reveal wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or, AI is going to be like when land lines became unnecessary when cellphones showed up in India. India may get to skip an entire intellectual generation due to the ability of a cheap model to educate (in any language). The narrative that an entire population are “worth” less, paid less , know less, live less … Fuck this less shit, embrace the paradigm shift. God is finally providing the remedial support through the…

I don't know if you've ever been to India, but one of its characteristic features is that it has lots of local languages. LLMs are awful at almost all of them. Plus, there's 20ish% of the population that falls below the literacy threshold. It's hard to imagine how those people would be educated by LLMs even if that was a good idea and they all had reliable Internet access, which they often don't.

Your comment raises question, if you have ever been to India. Most of those 20% are old people. K-12 education need to be improved but literacy is not a major problem. Also India has cheapest internet in the world.

Re: India's top court angry after junior judge cites fake AI-generated orders

#173

Post by sillywalk »

dartharva wrote: post #42

The scary thing is that Indian juduciary is infamous for being incapable of tolerating any kind of criticism against it and not hesitating to put people in jail for "contempt" for just calling out corruption. Imagine the official courts of 1.4B+ people being run by such braindead narcissists, now unhindered with having to even pretend to do their jobs as they just offload everything to AI tools.

> The scary thing is that Indian juduciary is infamous for being incapable of tolerating any kind of criticism against it and not hesitating to put people in jail for "contempt" for just calling out corruption.

From [0]:

"India's Supreme Court has banned a school textbook after a chapter in it made a reference to corruption in the judiciary.

The revised social science book was published by the National Council of Educational Research and Training (NCERT), which designs the syllabus and textbooks for millions of schoolchildren in the country.

On Wednesday, after Chief Justice Surya Kant criticised the book, saying it could damage the reputation of the judiciary, NCERT apologised and withdrew it from distribution.

Now the court has ordered a complete halt on the book's publication, saying its contents were "extremely contemptuous" and "reckless".

"A complete blanket ban is hereby imposed on any further publication, reprinting or digital dissemination of the book," the court said on Thursday, according to legal news website LiveLaw.

The judges also issued notices to the top bureaucrat in the school education department and the NCERT director, asking them to explain why they should not be held in contempt of court for including the "offending chapter".

[0] https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c627l7zexr8o

Re: India's top court angry after junior judge cites fake AI-generated orders

#174

Post by lazide »

mminer237 wrote: post #170
lazide wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not enough - you’d also need to check that they say/mean what is being implied. Which is a real problem.

To be fair, that's a problem with human authors too. Wikipedia is really well-cited, but it's common to check a citation and find it only says half of what a sentence does, while the rest seemingly has no basis in fact. Judges are supposed to actually read the citations to not only confirm the case exists and says what's being claimed, but often to also compare & contrast the situations to ensure that principle is ap…

Yup. The issue with LLMs are not that any specific thing it is doing is unique. Rather that it does it in previously unimaginable volume, scale, and accessibility.

Re: India's top court angry after junior judge cites fake AI-generated orders

#175

Post by rramadass »

dartharva wrote: post #167
rramadass wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, you are reading it wrong; The Indian Supreme Court is doing the right thing. The lower courts in India are all overloaded with pending cases (i.e. not enough judges) and so the incentives for both judges and lawyers to "outsource" to AI is very high. This needs to be done with caution and that is what the supreme court said, viz; The Supreme Court called the case a matter of "institutional concern" and said fake…

This means India's judiciary is operationally stunted because of low capacity relative to demand, which is a ridiculously urgent and critical flaw that should have simply not occurred in the first place. Why on earth are they not increasing capacity and headcount?

Many reasons, viz; Slow Recruitments/Appointments, Executive/Judiciary tussle, Insufficient infrastructure, Budget Constraints etc.

The process to qualify as a Judge is long drawn and difficult while one can easily become a Lawyer and make more money for a fraction of the effort. Apparently there are only 22 judges per million people! - https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/indian-judicial-system-strug...

This is why AI adoption is very important for the Indian Judiciary. There are a number of good startups in this area which will hopefully alleviate this problem in the near future, eg; Adalat AI - https://www.adalat.ai/

Major Challenges Faced by the Indian Judiciary - https://www.lloydlawcollege.edu.in/blog/challenges-faced-ind...

Understanding vacancies in the Indian judiciary - https://prsindia.org/theprsblog/understanding-vacancies-in-t...

PS: Have first-hand knowledge of the above since i have a ongoing civil case in the lower courts. I attend all court dates just to make sure my lawyer does his job and always check the status of my case online. The judge has only a few minutes for cases in the initial stage (the lawyers almost always seek and are granted an adjournment of a month) and only spends time on cases in the later evidence/cross-examination stages. He dictates/writes his notes to a person who types it into a computer which is then uploaded to the official website at end-of-the-day.

Re: India's top court angry after junior judge cites fake AI-generated orders

#176

Post by inder1 »

The failure mode here is predictable. Junior practitioners in any domain are being asked to use AI tools before they've developed the professional judgment to validate the outputs. You can't spot a hallucinated court order if you don't know what real court orders look like. The tool isn't the problem. The training pipeline that skips fundamentals is.

Re: India's top court angry after junior judge cites fake AI-generated orders

#177

Post by epgui »

torben-friis wrote: post #51
cmiles8 wrote: post #14

There will be many more things like this and it’s an elephant in the room for the supposed mass replacement of people with AI. Some human still has to be accountable. Someone has to get fired / go to jail when something screws up. You can make humans more productive but for the foreseeable future you can’t take the human out of the loop to have an AI implementation that’s not a disaster/lawsuit waiting to happen. Tha…

I think this is an even clearer case than usual. With software engineers and office work you don’t have legal limitations on who can perform the work, but they exist for lawyers and doctors for example. So if this is a tool, the fault lies fully in the user, and if this is treated as “another persons work” then the user knowingly passed the work onto someone not authorized to do it. Both end up in the user being guil…

> With software engineers […] you don’t have legal limitations on who can perform the work

While in practice that is true, in theory this is why professional engineering accreditations (I mean like P.Eng., not little certificates) exist. Perhaps we will see a broader professionalization of the profession one day.

Re: India's top court angry after junior judge cites fake AI-generated orders

#178

Post by jacquesm »

chrisjj wrote: post #162
jacquesm wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Youtube is insanely ineffecient compared to a good AI model in interactive mode.

True. An "AI agent" is >100x as fast at mistakingly wiping C:.

I don't let AI agents anywhere near my systems.

I meant just interactive as in you talk to it in a browser a-la chatgpt compared to trying to find the same information from videos.

Re: India's top court angry after junior judge cites fake AI-generated orders

#179

Post by jacquesm »

visarga wrote: post #128
cmiles8 wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Correct. The US has already ruled that there are no IP protections for AI generated content

An unqualified statement, the user has copyright over the elements they provide. In an image if they make manual edits for example, those are protected. In a modern agentic codebase the code itself is least valuable, what counts more are the specs and tests.

Good luck with that argument in court.

Re: India's top court angry after junior judge cites fake AI-generated orders

#180

Post by refulgentis »

dang wrote: post #152
love2read wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Awesome ai generated comment. Seriously when will @dang integrate pangram into comments?

Does pangram work?

Alas, tl;dr: no. (it caught the one above, easily, but didn't catch ones from Opus 4.6, it's very confident they're 100% human. as I would be :/ )
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