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Keep Your Identity Small

paulgraham.com

171–180 of 267 posts

Re: Keep Your Identity Small

#171
post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed, how do you bring up your own kids to have a small identity? I get the feeling that children growing into adults have an innate need to find identity, and if you have an identity vacuum at home they'll find it elsewhere.

Organized sports.

I subscribe, and if I can I would add: - Multicultural experiences, when I was younger I participated in a Camp with people from various backgrounds (races, income classes, countries) it was really a big experience. - Sharing, I guess in the near future we will be teaching to our children to be humble by giving, those new syndromes they're discovering of spoiled children who just had everything in their lifes and the parents lose control of them. I guess playing with another children also helps, and having strong bonds with relatives of the same age.

I am from a big family and I just see the differences when comparing myself to single sons, but I find the differences interesting, I even admire them.

I also wonder what are the influences of growing up in a family dominated by women. Anyone wants to elaborate?

Great discussion!

Re: Keep Your Identity Small

#172
post #81

A scientist isn't committed to believing in natural selection in the same way an evangelical Christian is committed to rejecting it. I disagree, I'm an evangelical Christian and I don't reject it.

Yeah, that statement bothered me to. People seeming to assume that just because a vocal minority of a group believe something, that all members of the group believe the same thing. This especially includes people who's expressed ideology hopes to avoid prejudice and bigotry. Thought I don't think PG, really thinks all Evangelicals are YECs. at least I hope he doesn't.

The other thing is that believing in natural selection is quite different from saying "man evolved from monkeys".

Also, it's possible to believe that God created the heavens and the earth, and that he created it 10,000 years ago but 14 billion years old. Similar to believing he created Adam and Eve after 6 days, but 20-or-so years old.

Re: Keep Your Identity Small

#173
post #62
post #9

Perhaps some day, the English language will have just one word for politics and religion.

Well, there is one word for something that comprises much of both: ideology.

How would you define ideology? As a person's current set of beliefs? Or as a set of vehemently held beliefs?

Argument is the process of applying logic to a set of ideas. It is based on the premise that logic alone can yield insights and both participants try to use logic to point out fallacies in their opponent's arugment.

If you believe that ideology is someone's current set of beliefs, then ideology is not threatening, as you have a good shot of changing someone's ideology through logic and argumentation.

However, if you believe that ideology is a dogma that someone viciously clings to, then there is no reason to bother arguing, as it could never result in the person conceding a point or changing an opinion.

I the former definition applies to most intelligent people.

In my case, all of my beliefs are provisional. I don't know anything for certain, but I may still engage in argument. I won't necessarily preface the argument with an in-depth acknowledgement of all of the holes I see in the beliefs at hand. Instead, I will see how well they stand up to my opponent's assaults. After all, I've already admitted to myself that they have holes, so now before I abandon them I should give them one last stand to see how they do.

A successful argument is one in which a) I discover more holes, or b) I realize that something I thought was a hole isn't.

Logical argument is quite unlike javascript where there are obvious ways of empirically testing a result. In the more abstract areas of programming there are massive arguments (see LKML, etc.) because it is hard to simply empirically test the result... the concepts are abstract and interwoven, etc.

To read the arguments on LKML, one sees that they are more socratic, more focused on the abstractions and hence are more subject to "ideology" being used rather than simple assertions.

So if you dismimss "ideology" as necessarily uninformed, you are asserting your own "ideology" onto the discussion.

What is a non-ideological argument? Is it something like this?

Person 1: I can't be sure, but I think there is a chance that A

Person 2: I see. I agree that there is a chance that A, but I think there is a greater chance that B.

Person 1: We both make good points.

Person 2: Indeed.

While the above may be an abundantly mature way to address A and B, I find a spirited argument far more informative. For the same reason, I find that it's easier to learn about the nuances of a political issue by reading op-eds written from various perspectives than from reading one supposedly objective "news" article.

Re: Keep Your Identity Small

#174

One trouble with following this line of reasoning to its limits is simply that one doesn't have an endless supply of mental energy. It is not merely easier to mark something about yourself as known and solid, and move on; it also frees cycles for other things. One simply can't go about life questioning every action in terms of its relationship to values which you are supposed to figure out. It's too hard. So, perhaps…

I don't see how it consumes mental energy to be less judgmental and make fewer identifications. If anything, the opposite is the case. Carrying a heavy identity takes a lot of energy: you have to defend yourself against anyone criticizing any piece of it. As for "following this line of reasoning to its limits", there are very few people who have. I came to the conclusion it was better not to try, as such; you're most…

In the case of religion and politics, it seems more difficult to maintain a lack of strongly-held opinion, as attempting to do so puts you at odds with most people who have one. Inevitably, someone will try to argue that your faithlessness or lack of political conviction is itself a faith or conviction, and it may very well become one if you get pulled into that.

Meanwhile, the even the most free-thinking of the faithful in anything come equipped with dogma, which requires little mental energy to invoke. This partially explains why arguments tend to be the same over and over again--they've been reduced to dogma vs. dogma.

Re: Keep Your Identity Small

#176
post #73

I disagree that the more labels someone has the dumber they make you. And I strongly disagree in that. I know people that believe in almost nothing. Not in a religion, not a programming language. Sure there won't ever be a religious argument. But also probably no discussion at all because there is nothing to talk about with them. I have a lot of believes and disbelieves but I still consider myself able to talk about…

I don't see how you've concluded that belief is a precondition to discussion. Do you only ever discuss subjects that you have a deeply-held opinion on?

Re: Keep Your Identity Small

#177
post #78

PGs thesis seems to boil down to this: If you believe in something strongly enough, it will cause you to want to defend it and you may compromise your rationality and civility as a result. For which reason we should believe in as little as possible and be as non-committal in our beliefs. I'm not sure that this is an ethically tenable position: shallowness extolled as a virtue. It's true, people who don't believe in a…

No, that wasn't what I was saying. There is a difference between having strong opinions and considering something part of your identity. You can discard an opinion if you get sufficient evidence to the contrary. It's harder to discard your identity.

Moreover, identifying as something doesn't necessarily take the form of having any specific opinions. E.g. identifying as southern (in the US) may cause you to have certain opinions, but it doesn't consist of having them. Someone who wasn't southern but happened to have the same opinions wouldn't thereby identify as southern.

Re: Keep Your Identity Small

#178
post #67
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're right. That's why I was careful to qualify it with "all other things being equal." In general identity gives you strength while making you stupid. This can sometimes be a good trade, especially in stressful situations. E.g. I think this is one reason people in the US are so much more religious than they were when I was a kid. People who 30 years ago might have been skeptical of preachers are now thinking that…

"identity gives you strength while making you stupid" Couldn't something similar be said about any emotional response. In that emotional responses give you something but are inherently irrational.

I'd say strong emotion makes you stupid. Emotional responses in general I think are more non-rational than necessarily irrational.

Re: Keep Your Identity Small

#179

Preface: one thing I like about PG's essays is that even though I often strongly disagree with his position, they really make me think, and force me to clarify my own position in my mind. The essay said, "people can never have a fruitful argument about something that's part of their identity". Hmmm. I don't think that's correct at all. For example, I have a great marriage, and my wife's a big part of my identity, but…

Husbands and wives are a special case. They know they can't afford to let a disagreement get out of control. You may be able to talk about controversial topics in a situation like that, where some kind of external force keeps the participants civil.

Re: Keep Your Identity Small

#180
post #163

Not your best effort. You seem to be arguing against having core beliefs. Yet having read your essays I would find it extremely hard to believe that you practice what you preach.

I'm not sure what "core beliefs" means precisely. But if it means beliefs you wouldn't discard even in the face of evidence to the contrary, it would seem good to have as few of those as possible.
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