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A Programmer's Loss of Identity

ratfactor.com

171–180 of 184 posts

Re: A Programmer's Loss of Identity

#171
Since no comment here has expressed my experience of watching tech devolve since I started programming in the late 1980s, I thought I'd leave one.

I've been vibe coding for a few months now and have gone through the grieving process. I may never manually code again.

It's bittersweet though. I had grown to loathe computers and the direction that tech has headed for so many years and decades that I had internalized the feeling of living in bizarro world, a kind of purgatory or living hell. One where the harder we worked, the more of ourselves that we put into our work, the more likely we were to fail.

Not because of what we did, but because of what we didn't do. That there is an opportunity cost with coding, that it requires such an existential sacrifice of time and life itself to accomplish even the smallest result, that it may as well be wizardry or akin to living as a monk.

Meaning that we simply didn't have the time to see markets appear, to promote our work or network with other entrepreneurs. We failed due to our own singlemindedness and determination. We failed because others intentionally unburdened themselves of the timesuck that is our way, to focus on the business side and get rich.

Think about what I just said. That the more we grew and honed our craft, the more we were punished for it by the status quo - society itself. That is the ultimate betrayal of a belief system. The ultimate internalization of failure. The ultimate low-vibration thought around guilt and shame.

Meanwhile tech bros went around the problem by using us to achieve their ends. They patted themselves on the back as they pulled the ladder up behind them. They called empathy the ultimate weakness, and they weren't wrong. We're the living proof of that weakness. Having to watch as they do the opposite of everything that is good and holy in our names, feeling powerless to stop them. If there are enemies foreign and domestic, a clear and present danger to all we hold dear as human beings, it is they, it is them.

The identity I once held as the one who can solve any problem - not just the problem itself but the problem of solving problems by codifying automations - is now forfeit.

AI already does that better and faster than I ever could, and it's improving so rapidly that it will transcend all human ability in just a decade. It's over.

Now, some of you reading this are already scoffing at what I'm saying, already fuming with rage at the implications, the ramifications of living in a world where novices run circles around experts, where the sacred becomes a plaything for the rich and powerful. But the cat's out of the bag. We're looking at a future so dystopian that it could unravel all progress ever achieved by humanity. We're staring the end in the face.

I'm reminded of Neo in The Matrix when the Architect told him that he wasn't the first version of The One, and that he must choose between love and the survival of all humankind.

So I've been transmuting my grief into acceptance on the road to peace. I reject their zero-sum game. We are more than what we do, or what we have.

I see a future in which the more they tighten their grip, the more we slip through their fingers. A future where they get everything they wish for, where their karma catches up with them. A future where their own notion of self-important grandeur makes them look insignificant against the glory of just being alive. My deepest wish for them is that they lose it all to find themselves back at square one like the rest of us, so that they can start living again.

When viewed in that light, loss of identity might be seen as the ultimate gift, a kind of reincarnation. A way to start over. A rebirth.

Re: A Programmer's Loss of Identity

#172
post #155
post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Provided one can go through the silliness of fitting golf balls into planes, or going through the algorithms and data structures books from 30 years ago.

What field has interviews without silliness like this. Jobs for lawyers in 1950 when all that mattered was your father and your alma mater? Hard pass. I would take a interview premised on a know, learnable challenge (even if silly) over one that exclusively relied on what college you went to.

At work we do both. If you pass the somewhat artificial interviews we invite you for a trial week of 3-5 days working with the actual team on actual real work (a somewhat contained feature or problem).

Lets us evaluate people in real conditions and visa versa.

Re: A Programmer's Loss of Identity

#173
post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What field has interviews without silliness like this. Jobs for lawyers in 1950 when all that mattered was your father and your alma mater? Hard pass. I would take a interview premised on a know, learnable challenge (even if silly) over one that exclusively relied on what college you went to.

At work we do both. If you pass the somewhat artificial interviews we invite you for a trial week of 3-5 days working with the actual team on actual real work (a somewhat contained feature or problem). Lets us evaluate people in real conditions and visa versa.

That only works for unemployed people.

In Germany for example, that isn't allowed, and there is the whole insurance discussion if something happens to someone that shouldn't be there as employee in first place.

Re: A Programmer's Loss of Identity

#174

> If the problem is that we’ve painted our development environments into a corner that requires tons of boilerplate, then that is the problem. We should have been chopping the cruft away and replacing it with deterministic abstractions like we’ve always done. That’s what that Larry Wall quote about good programmers being lazy was about. It did not mean that we would be okay with pulling a damn slot machine lever a co…

I've experienced that AI relies even more on the abstractions humans need than humans do.

People talk about stripping away the ORM, or just writing object code, but the limited context windows in my experience make AI require even more, rather than fewer, abstractions for the AI to function well.

Re: A Programmer's Loss of Identity

#175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> you never gonna even be good at flipping burgers i promise you this is not true understand the chemistry of fats an denaturing of proteins, understand myoglobin; it is not much different than understanding anything. nothing stops you from trying to make the best burgers in the world be curious, ignorant and kind

I know because I just got laid off from McDonald's. It's very hard: stress, speed, precision, noise. You are competing with people 20 years younger. It's like watching professional athletes vs school soccer

sorry man i cant even imagine what you are going through i didnt mean to be condescending or anything, i just truly believe that people are amazing

to be amazing however requires food and roof and a bit of luck

i honestly dont know what i would do without a job, its hard to break into trades i hear, and also seems to be hard in mcdonalds

i will probably start a tool and die shop or something, or a burger joint, smash burgers only (those the only ones i love to make)

Re: A Programmer's Loss of Identity

#176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A vegan cheeseburger isn't a cheeseburger.

That's why it's called vegan cheeseburger and not cheeseburger! A toy car isn't a car, a step dad isn't a dad and an e book isn't a book, are they ?

A cheeseburger with neither beef nor cheese is not a cheeseburger.

A vegan sandwich would be right.

Do you also call a caesar salad a salad cheeseburger?

Re: A Programmer's Loss of Identity

#177
post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At work we do both. If you pass the somewhat artificial interviews we invite you for a trial week of 3-5 days working with the actual team on actual real work (a somewhat contained feature or problem). Lets us evaluate people in real conditions and visa versa.

That only works for unemployed people. In Germany for example, that isn't allowed, and there is the whole insurance discussion if something happens to someone that shouldn't be there as employee in first place.

It also works for people willing to take time off (PTO or otherwise). We do lose some people who aren't willing to do the trial, but that's considered acceptable. People who do the work trial and accept an offer are much more likely to stick around (much lower rate of mistakes on their part and our part.)

I'm laughing a bit at Germany, but Europe in general has lost the plot when it comes to innovation.

Re: A Programmer's Loss of Identity

#178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I lost my job as a programmer and I think it's over for me. No, you will not hack the device drivers in the basement but you're gonna be flipping burgers and out of cash or energy for anything else. Worst thing: you never gonna even be good at flipping burgers without experience or young age... Once you are out of the field, and your money is gone: suddenly you are useless, old trash. No one even wants to employ ex p…

> you never gonna even be good at flipping burgers i promise you this is not true understand the chemistry of fats an denaturing of proteins, understand myoglobin; it is not much different than understanding anything. nothing stops you from trying to make the best burgers in the world be curious, ignorant and kind

You are talking about being a professional chef, not a fast food employee.

Re: A Programmer's Loss of Identity

#179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know because I just got laid off from McDonald's. It's very hard: stress, speed, precision, noise. You are competing with people 20 years younger. It's like watching professional athletes vs school soccer

sorry man i cant even imagine what you are going through i didnt mean to be condescending or anything, i just truly believe that people are amazing to be amazing however requires food and roof and a bit of luck i honestly dont know what i would do without a job, its hard to break into trades i hear, and also seems to be hard in mcdonalds i will probably start a tool and die shop or something, or a burger joint, smash…

You must have a lot of capital already if those are realistic options for you.

Re: A Programmer's Loss of Identity

#180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

100%. A lot of these AI anxiety driven odes to the loss of craft have me wondering whether anyone cares about the value being provided to the user (or the business), which is the part that is actually your job. Elegant, well-written and technically sound projects will continue to exist, but I’ve seen too many “well crafted” implementations of such technically vexing features as “fetching data and returning it” that w…

"I’ve seen too many «well crafted» implementations of such technically vexing features as «fetching data and returning it» that were so overengineered that it should have been considered theft of company money." This judgement has merit. However, over the years I got to perceive that over-engineering tendency to be the manifestation of exploratory spirit in one's craft. This is how the Unix got to be created at Bell…

Bell Labs employees were explicitly hired to do research.
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