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TikTok settles just before social media addiction trial to begin

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Re: TikTok settles just before social media addiction trial to begin

#171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Consider the Lean Startup methodology. The darker patterns are where you break down the big picture rationale for the company. You extract metrics that contribute to the company's success (i.e. engagement) and you build a machine that rewards changes to the underlying system that improves those metrics. If done successfully, you create an unwitting sociopathy, a process that demands the product be as addictive as pos…

That horror being..? I understand that this is a ruthless quest for engagement by any means, good or bad. For instance ...? I don't mean to make you do all the work here: I can see a couple of pages from the introduction which mention "variability" and "investment": > What distinguishes the Hook Model from a plain vanilla feedback loop is the Hook’s ability to create a craving. Feedback loops are all around us, but p…

Are you being intentionally obstinate? I can't help but feel like you're sealioning.

An increasing number of young people get their news from social media and what is "engaging" isn't necessarily what's true. This leads to greater political polarisation, nuance is lost, tribalism increases, people treat conversations as things to be won as opposed to opportunities to share information. People spend their entire time doomscrolling because everything is "engaging" so it caters to their paranoia and attempts to keep them glued to their phone, ramping up their anxiety and paranoia because it makes them more money. People stay up late scrolling a feed that hooks them, sleep less, perform less well at work, may lose their job and all the ramifications that go along with that. Parents spend more time on their phones than with their children, a generation of babies and toddlers are having to compete for attention with these apps and in many cases fail because they're designed so well. What's worse is the babies get thrust an ipad and then are brought up by arbitrary strangers who may not have their best interests at heart and are exposed to considerable amounts of advertising at far too young an age.

I could go on but I feel like you're just going to give another one liner where you pretend that actually there's nothing wrong with this or smth.

Re: TikTok settles just before social media addiction trial to begin

#172
post #140

Fundamentally, I think having a source of "free dopamine" on tap is not going to do any good. If I can get distracted from my real world tasks anytime, anywhere, the immediate incentives to work on real things disappear. Effectively, one can get stuck in a local minimum. I don't know how to solve it, but personally I've chosen to block as many feeds/algorithms as I can, so I have to make a conscious decision to searc…

I was reading a few weeks ago that it's more about easy dopamine rather than free that is so incredibly destructive. Scrolling for hits of satisfying novelty is a proposition that will not be sustainably met. Part of me also wonders if things like this can be used for not so great things, can they be used for good things?

Story time! A couple years ago, I found myself with pretty severe ADHD and no way to get treatment for it. (There may have been a global healthcare cataclysm involved...)

I wanted to make some progress on a personal project, but I had a history of abandoning things, without external accountability. I had a guy for that the previous year, which worked great, but our interests diverged, so I had to find a way to do it on my own.

I realized that I couldn't force it. I had to find a way to make it work without having sufficient dopamine. Without relying on willpower at all.

So I stumbled into environmental design from first principles. I simply designed around all the failure modes.

1. I noticed that if I skipped a day of working on my project, the chance of completely losing momentum would rise enormously. So I decided I have to work every day, but to make it sustainable it only needs to be an hour.

2. I noticed that if I put work off until later in the day, the chance of skipping a day would rise enormously. So I decided that I had to start working as soon as I woke up. (But only for an hour. I could keep going but I didn't have to.)

3. And finally I noticed that, if I started playing with my phone or surfing the internet, the day was basically over. So I made a rule that I had to keep them both off for the first hour of the day. (And I turned them off the night before for good measure. That way I am waking up into the correct state by default.)

And what do you know. I didn't miss a day for 3 months. Even my dopamine starved brain was able to persist on this project every day without fail for several months straight, because I simply made these small changes to my environment!

The project suddenly became the most fun and interesting thing I could be doing. I actually looked forward to working on it the next day, when I went to sleep at night!

Re: TikTok settles just before social media addiction trial to begin

#173
post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow this is a bad take and a half. Apply the argument to abusing drugs now, and see how this argument throws all nuance out the window.

Well, addictive drugs cause punishment to a quitting user by chemical means. By the way, I'm interested in answers. I don't appreciate this being shot down as a bad take. Give me explanations, not disapproval.

There’s physical dependence and there’s psychological dependence. Most drugs can cause both, but hallucinogens in particular are usually thought to cause only psychological dependence. Whether that makes them less dangerous is debatable, but the fact is, they can still cause addiction if used carelessly.

Now to your main point... dopamine hits aren’t inherently good or bad. They can, however, also make things addictive, and drug abuse is indeed a good parallel here.

Re: TikTok settles just before social media addiction trial to begin

#174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That horror being..? I understand that this is a ruthless quest for engagement by any means, good or bad. For instance ...? I don't mean to make you do all the work here: I can see a couple of pages from the introduction which mention "variability" and "investment": > What distinguishes the Hook Model from a plain vanilla feedback loop is the Hook’s ability to create a craving. Feedback loops are all around us, but p…

Are you being intentionally obstinate? I can't help but feel like you're sealioning. An increasing number of young people get their news from social media and what is "engaging" isn't necessarily what's true. This leads to greater political polarisation, nuance is lost, tribalism increases, people treat conversations as things to be won as opposed to opportunities to share information. People spend their entire time…

Eh, sorry, edited some stuff in now. I'm not a sealion, honest, we just have different points of view where what is obvious to you (to the point of irrelevance?) is unsubstantiated and crucial from my perspective.

I'm going to acknowledge "anxiety and paranoia" as something that it's particularly unethical to pander to. But I feel like that deserves a name in its own right, separate from addiction. I'm having a tip-of-the-tongue moment about it.

- I guess that's (automated) fearmongering and hoaxing.

Re: TikTok settles just before social media addiction trial to begin

#175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, addictive drugs cause punishment to a quitting user by chemical means. By the way, I'm interested in answers. I don't appreciate this being shot down as a bad take. Give me explanations, not disapproval.

There’s physical dependence and there’s psychological dependence. Most drugs can cause both, but hallucinogens in particular are usually thought to cause only psychological dependence. Whether that makes them less dangerous is debatable, but the fact is, they can still cause addiction if used carelessly. Now to your main point... dopamine hits aren’t inherently good or bad. They can, however, also make things addicti…

What do you think about pinball? Is it bad for us, should we sue?

Re: TikTok settles just before social media addiction trial to begin

#176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you being intentionally obstinate? I can't help but feel like you're sealioning. An increasing number of young people get their news from social media and what is "engaging" isn't necessarily what's true. This leads to greater political polarisation, nuance is lost, tribalism increases, people treat conversations as things to be won as opposed to opportunities to share information. People spend their entire time…

Eh, sorry, edited some stuff in now. I'm not a sealion, honest, we just have different points of view where what is obvious to you (to the point of irrelevance?) is unsubstantiated and crucial from my perspective. I'm going to acknowledge "anxiety and paranoia" as something that it's particularly unethical to pander to. But I feel like that deserves a name in its own right, separate from addiction. I'm having a tip-o…

I see your angle but I worry the "free will" premise sleep walks us into manipulation. People are vulnerable to the The Psychology of Persuasion (Robert B Cialdini).

My perspective might be a bit nannying but I think we're arguing the nation-building vs individualism axis and the free-will vs regulation axis.

For example, smoking has some benefits, its a cheap stimulent, helps you focus, good for people with undiagnosed ADHD. However its highly addictive and causes terrible long term health issues, so where do we fall on the line of its regulation? Should we allow everyone to persue their "free will" and advertising to be unregulated? Tobacco companies have a perverse incentive to downplay and suppress the health costs, fabricate positive research and lobby governments. Last time we allowed that everyone smoked, that might be good for free will, but is that good for society, for nation building?

I'd make a similar argument for our addictive online services, I think they should probably be age gated and increasingly regulated. While they're beneficial for the US economy they're detrimental to the nation-building of all nations exposed to them.

I would ask you to consider how the internet would look if online advertising was banned. While its an unrealistic aim, I think that view is extremely informative to the idea of _actual_ free will. If you remember how the old internet looked, its clear how the profit motive has distorted the internet beyond recognition.

To throw up a more middle ground example based on a video I saw a couple of days ago: there's a popular "health food influencer" on tiktok who gives contradictory advice based on products he's promoting and their ingredients list. In January sugar is a terrible ingredient but in March its entirely fine. He's shilling via product placement and there's no regulation of his platform. If people lack critical thinking they just blindly buy these products and learn nothing about health. You might state they're exercising their free will, but is that genuinely true? Maybe he only obtained his traffic because he had no qualms about how manipulative his content was. Did he get his early numbers via botting and then ending up towards the top of the list? Perhaps he threw $20k at another popular influencer to spam mentions and that's how he got his early traffic. An entirely unregulated system permits this. If the money wasn't there the only people talking about health foods would be people genuinely interested who gave reliable advice. The profit motive creates this distortion because its profitable to be misleading and sensationalist. There is a nuanced conversation to be had around people being able to make money on the platform and dedicate a career to it and banning advertising doesn't allow that. Somewhere there's a middle ground, I'm not sure where that is but I don't think we're anywhere near it today.

If you want a genuinely dark example then look up subliminals [0]. Its a niche community of grifter adults and tragically sad children, where the children seem to be labouring under a bizarre misconception peddled by the grifters that by repeatedly watching a specially prepared video they can become taller or have a prettier nose.

[0] - https://reddit.com/r/Subliminal/

Re: TikTok settles just before social media addiction trial to begin

#177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There’s physical dependence and there’s psychological dependence. Most drugs can cause both, but hallucinogens in particular are usually thought to cause only psychological dependence. Whether that makes them less dangerous is debatable, but the fact is, they can still cause addiction if used carelessly. Now to your main point... dopamine hits aren’t inherently good or bad. They can, however, also make things addicti…

What do you think about pinball? Is it bad for us, should we sue?

You can plot all activities on a spectrum of dopamine 'cheapness'. On one side of the spectrum is slot machines, various drugs, and doomscrolling. These generally involve little effort, and involve 'variable ratio reinforcement' which is where you get rewards at unpredictable intervals in such a way that you get addicted. Generally, after a long session of one of these activities, you feel like crap.

On the other side of the spectrum is more wholesome long-horizon activities like a challenging side project, career progression, or fitness goals. There's certainly an element of variable ratio reinforcement in all of these, but because the rewards are so much more tangible, and you get to exercise more of your agency, these activities generally feel quite meaningful on reflection.

Playing pinball is somewhere in the middle, probably on the cheaper side of the spectrum. Introspective people can generally reflect on a session and decide whether it was a good use of their time or not.

I really think that 'how do you feel after a long session of this' is a good measuring stick. Very few people will tell you that they feel good after a long session of social media scrolling or short-form content.

Another good measuring stick is 'do you want to want to be doing this?'. I want to want to go to the gym and gain 10kg of muscle. I do not want to want to spend hours on tiktok every day.

Re: TikTok settles just before social media addiction trial to begin

#178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There’s physical dependence and there’s psychological dependence. Most drugs can cause both, but hallucinogens in particular are usually thought to cause only psychological dependence. Whether that makes them less dangerous is debatable, but the fact is, they can still cause addiction if used carelessly. Now to your main point... dopamine hits aren’t inherently good or bad. They can, however, also make things addicti…

What do you think about pinball? Is it bad for us, should we sue?

If we look at the effects, no, I don’t think so. I see how pinball could be optimized for addictiveness, but I don’t see a lot of people devoting all their free time to it.

Now, it is more nuanced than that. Is addiction bad for us? And at what point do we say we’re addicted to something? For me personally, when I can’t stop doing something (say, watching YouTube instead of working on a project), I won’t be happy long-term. It would be more gratifying short-term, sure, but I’d say it’s still not good.

Re: TikTok settles just before social media addiction trial to begin

#179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Eh, sorry, edited some stuff in now. I'm not a sealion, honest, we just have different points of view where what is obvious to you (to the point of irrelevance?) is unsubstantiated and crucial from my perspective. I'm going to acknowledge "anxiety and paranoia" as something that it's particularly unethical to pander to. But I feel like that deserves a name in its own right, separate from addiction. I'm having a tip-o…

I see your angle but I worry the "free will" premise sleep walks us into manipulation. People are vulnerable to the The Psychology of Persuasion (Robert B Cialdini). My perspective might be a bit nannying but I think we're arguing the nation-building vs individualism axis and the free-will vs regulation axis. For example, smoking has some benefits, its a cheap stimulent, helps you focus, good for people with undiagno…

Hey, that's a lot of assuming the conclusion. I meant that the piano-player has free will in the sense that she's not addicted. I don't want to argue for the right to use addictive drugs, I'm trying to establish whether TikTok is one.

Re: TikTok settles just before social media addiction trial to begin

#180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you think about pinball? Is it bad for us, should we sue?

You can plot all activities on a spectrum of dopamine 'cheapness'. On one side of the spectrum is slot machines, various drugs, and doomscrolling. These generally involve little effort, and involve 'variable ratio reinforcement' which is where you get rewards at unpredictable intervals in such a way that you get addicted. Generally, after a long session of one of these activities, you feel like crap. On the other sid…

> Playing pinball is somewhere in the middle, probably on the cheaper side of the spectrum.

It could be a nice segue to tinkering with pinball machines though :)

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