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Germany's Merz admits nuclear exit was strategic mistake

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Re: Germany's Merz admits nuclear exit was strategic mistake

#171

Post by UltraSane »

quotemstr wrote: post #168
UltraSane wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is a real problem and is being addressed Subsidised electricity price set at 5 euro cents per kWh until 2028 https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/german-coalition-agr... Germany cuts costs for electricity-intensive companies from 1 January 2026: the new industrial electricity price https://www.gleisslutz.com/en/know-how/germany-cuts-costs-el... Are high electricity prices a threat to Germany's industry? https:/…

The subsidy strategy is strategically reckless and economically doomed. What is it supposed to accomplish? The factories aren't profitable at today's energy prices. Since it's these factories that create Germany's wealth, their being unprofitable makes the country unprofitable, driving down standards of living. If you subsidize electricity by capping consumer prices, then you have to either cap producer prices (creat…

I'm not German and very pro-nuclear energy and think Germany's energy policy is very VERY stupid. Shutting down perfectly good nuclear reactors while importing nuclear electricity from France is just insane. Germany emits about 10 times as much CO2 per kWh as France!

  Germany: 328-354g CO2/kWh
  France:   27- 39g CO2/kWh

Re: Germany's Merz admits nuclear exit was strategic mistake

#172

Post by uecker »

UltraSane wrote: post #171
quotemstr wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The subsidy strategy is strategically reckless and economically doomed. What is it supposed to accomplish? The factories aren't profitable at today's energy prices. Since it's these factories that create Germany's wealth, their being unprofitable makes the country unprofitable, driving down standards of living. If you subsidize electricity by capping consumer prices, then you have to either cap producer prices (creat…

I'm not German and very pro-nuclear energy and think Germany's energy policy is very VERY stupid. Shutting down perfectly good nuclear reactors while importing nuclear electricity from France is just insane. Germany emits about 10 times as much CO2 per kWh as France! Germany: 328-354g CO2/kWh France: 27- 39g CO2/kWh

Your arguments are calling it "VERY stupid" and "insane". That says all about the rationality of your position.

Re: Germany's Merz admits nuclear exit was strategic mistake

#173

Post by uecker »

quotemstr wrote: post #168
UltraSane wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is a real problem and is being addressed Subsidised electricity price set at 5 euro cents per kWh until 2028 https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/german-coalition-agr... Germany cuts costs for electricity-intensive companies from 1 January 2026: the new industrial electricity price https://www.gleisslutz.com/en/know-how/germany-cuts-costs-el... Are high electricity prices a threat to Germany's industry? https:/…

The subsidy strategy is strategically reckless and economically doomed. What is it supposed to accomplish? The factories aren't profitable at today's energy prices. Since it's these factories that create Germany's wealth, their being unprofitable makes the country unprofitable, driving down standards of living. If you subsidize electricity by capping consumer prices, then you have to either cap producer prices (creat…

All you are discussing the wrong points. All your conclusions rest on the assumption that nuclear is the more cost effective solution, but this is not true (and we could discuss this). You did not notice the price drop in renewables? Germany still pays subsidies (technically there are not subsidies though) but those are far less than initially. The cost drop caused a huge amount of investments world-wide in renewables far ahead of investments in nuclear. The reality is that nuclear needs more government support than renewables. The EDF in France was renationalized because operating it as a profit-driven company wasn't exactly a success story (especially since the electricity price is kept artificially low in France and does not all EDF to make the profits to make necessary investments)

Since nuclear is more costly, that all your arguments about the economic issues turn around and go into the other direction.

Re: Germany's Merz admits nuclear exit was strategic mistake

#174

Post by UltraSane »

uecker wrote: post #173
quotemstr wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The subsidy strategy is strategically reckless and economically doomed. What is it supposed to accomplish? The factories aren't profitable at today's energy prices. Since it's these factories that create Germany's wealth, their being unprofitable makes the country unprofitable, driving down standards of living. If you subsidize electricity by capping consumer prices, then you have to either cap producer prices (creat…

All you are discussing the wrong points. All your conclusions rest on the assumption that nuclear is the more cost effective solution, but this is not true (and we could discuss this). You did not notice the price drop in renewables? Germany still pays subsidies (technically there are not subsidies though) but those are far less than initially. The cost drop caused a huge amount of investments world-wide in renewable…

Germany emits about 10 times as much CO2 per kWh as France!

  Germany: 328-354g CO2/kWh
  France:   27- 39g CO2/kWh

Re: Germany's Merz admits nuclear exit was strategic mistake

#175

Post by uecker »

uecker wrote: post #172
UltraSane wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not German and very pro-nuclear energy and think Germany's energy policy is very VERY stupid. Shutting down perfectly good nuclear reactors while importing nuclear electricity from France is just insane. Germany emits about 10 times as much CO2 per kWh as France! Germany: 328-354g CO2/kWh France: 27- 39g CO2/kWh

Your arguments are calling it "VERY stupid" and "insane". That says all about the rationality of your position.

I see you edited your comment. But the CO2 emissions between a completed transition away from fossil fuels (France last century) and Germany (still ongoing) can obviously not be compared. With the roll-out of renewables there is a corresponding drop of emissions (and the electricity sector is the one saving Germany's climate targets by overachieving its goals while transport and building is behind). Once the transition is done, it will be essentially done. It would be same if Germany had decided to move to more nuclear, which would take even longer because building nuclear takes much.longer.

Re: Germany's Merz admits nuclear exit was strategic mistake

#176

Post by UltraSane »

uecker wrote: post #175
uecker wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your arguments are calling it "VERY stupid" and "insane". That says all about the rationality of your position.

I see you edited your comment. But the CO2 emissions between a completed transition away from fossil fuels (France last century) and Germany (still ongoing) can obviously not be compared. With the roll-out of renewables there is a corresponding drop of emissions (and the electricity sector is the one saving Germany's climate targets by overachieving its goals while transport and building is behind). Once the transiti…

"But the CO2 emissions between a completed transition away from fossil fuels (France last century) and Germany (still ongoing) can obviously not be compared"

Isn't that convenient? The truth is that Germany could already have completed the "transition away from fossil fuels" that France did if it wasn't so irrationally afraid of nuclear electricity.

"Once the transition is done"

It will NEVER be done due to the intermittency of wind and solar.

Re: Germany's Merz admits nuclear exit was strategic mistake

#177

Post by uecker »

UltraSane wrote: post #170
uecker wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whether there is a real problem with high electricity was not the question, but whether it is caused by renewables vs. nuclear.

It is caused by a overall incredibly stupid energy policy.

Thanks for confirming my comment about the intellectual level of this debate.

Re: Germany's Merz admits nuclear exit was strategic mistake

#178

Post by uecker »

UltraSane wrote: post #176
uecker wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see you edited your comment. But the CO2 emissions between a completed transition away from fossil fuels (France last century) and Germany (still ongoing) can obviously not be compared. With the roll-out of renewables there is a corresponding drop of emissions (and the electricity sector is the one saving Germany's climate targets by overachieving its goals while transport and building is behind). Once the transiti…

"But the CO2 emissions between a completed transition away from fossil fuels (France last century) and Germany (still ongoing) can obviously not be compared" Isn't that convenient? The truth is that Germany could already have completed the "transition away from fossil fuels" that France did if it wasn't so irrationally afraid of nuclear electricity. "Once the transition is done" It will NEVER be done due to the inter…

The truth is that you need to set the decline of CO2 emissions to the progress of the transition. If you do this, you will see that emissions decrease accordingly to the rollout of renewables. If Germany had decided to build out nuclear, it would also not have low emissions the next day, but only decades later depending on how much coal is replaced by new nuclear. This not difficult to understand. In fact, it is very obvious.

Re: Germany's Merz admits nuclear exit was strategic mistake

#179

Post by uecker »

UltraSane wrote: post #174
uecker wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All you are discussing the wrong points. All your conclusions rest on the assumption that nuclear is the more cost effective solution, but this is not true (and we could discuss this). You did not notice the price drop in renewables? Germany still pays subsidies (technically there are not subsidies though) but those are far less than initially. The cost drop caused a huge amount of investments world-wide in renewable…

Germany emits about 10 times as much CO2 per kWh as France! Germany: 328-354g CO2/kWh France: 27- 39g CO2/kWh

Yes, and Germany's emissions for electricity production were double the amount a decade ago and are dropping as coal is phased out. So renewables do work. 1) Once the transition is complete it will also be close to zero. These numbers only show that if you move to a carbon-neutral production already in the eighties of last century your are done now. Please make a reasonable argument and not this nonsense comparison.

1) You can find a plot here (absolute numbers). See the dramatic drop in emissions in recent years? https://energy-charts.info/charts/co2_emissions/chart.htm?l=...

Re: Germany's Merz admits nuclear exit was strategic mistake

#180

Post by UltraSane »

uecker wrote: post #179
UltraSane wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Germany emits about 10 times as much CO2 per kWh as France! Germany: 328-354g CO2/kWh France: 27- 39g CO2/kWh

Yes, and Germany's emissions for electricity production were double the amount a decade ago and are dropping as coal is phased out. So renewables do work. 1) Once the transition is complete it will also be close to zero. These numbers only show that if you move to a carbon-neutral production already in the eighties of last century your are done now. Please make a reasonable argument and not this nonsense comparison.…

The sane and sensible thing to do would have been to phase out coal instead of nuclear, then Germany would have as low of CO2 emissions per KWh as France. What does Germany plan to use for dispatch-able power when wind and solar don't supply enough?
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