Live data from Hacker News

The next two years of software engineering

addyosmani.com

171–180 of 403 posts

Re: The next two years of software engineering

#171

TBH, it all feels like a huge gamble at this point. Neither skills, education, institutional ties, nor current employment can guarantee a stable foundation for life. This hits harder depending on how much money, social capital, or debt you accumulated before this volatility began. If you’ve paid off your debts, bought a house, and stabilized your family life, you’re gambling with how comfortable the coming years will…

I felt a lot safer when I was a young grad than now that I have kids to support and I can't just up and move to wherever the best job opportunity is or live off lentils to save money or whatever.

Yeah, kids change the landscape a lot. On the other hand, if you don't have any personal ties, its easier to grab opportunities, but you are unlikely to build any kind of social network when chasing jobs all over the country/world.

Either way, there is very little to no path toward "family + place to live + stable job" model.

Re: The next two years of software engineering

#172
post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I made the wrong choice with software development. If you didn't like working with computers, then you (and another gazillion people who choose it for the $$$) probably made the wrong choice. But totally depends on what you wanted to get out of it. If you wanted to make $$$ and you are making it, what is the problem? That is assuming you have fun outside of work. But if you wanted to be the best at what you do, then…

> If you didn't like working with , then you ... This type of argument can hold for any profession and yet we aren't seeing this pattern much in other white-collar professions. Professors, doctors, economists, mechanical engineers, ... it seems like pretty much everybody made the wrong choice then? I think this is a wrong way to look at it. OP says that he invested a lot of time into becoming proficient in something…

Your first point hits the nail on the head. We are expected to have side projects and to keep up with new things (outside of work) but most other jobs don't have that. I would be okay with my work sending me off for additional training, on company time, but I don't want it to consume the time I have left after work.

Re: The next two years of software engineering

#173
post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I made the wrong choice with software development. If you didn't like working with computers, then you (and another gazillion people who choose it for the $$$) probably made the wrong choice. But totally depends on what you wanted to get out of it. If you wanted to make $$$ and you are making it, what is the problem? That is assuming you have fun outside of work. But if you wanted to be the best at what you do, then…

> If you didn't like working with computers, then you probably made the wrong choice. This doesn't match what I have seen in other industries. Many auto mechanics I know drive old Buicks or Ford's with the 4.6l v8 because the cars are reliable and the last thing they want to do on a day off is have to work on their own car. I know a few people in other trades like plumbers, electricians, and chefs and the pattern hol…

Exactly this. I love writing code and solving problems. In my 20s and very early 30s I worked a lot of long hours and tried my best to always be learning new things and upskilling but it's never ending. It's hard sometimes to not look back and think about the hours I spent on code instead of building stronger friendships and relationships.

Re: The next two years of software engineering

#174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Saying this as a software engineer that has a degree in electrical engineering - software "engineering" is definitely not the same as other engineering disciplines and definitely belongs in a trade school.

Right, because the guy sitting next to me and is designing a PCB for next copy of rPI is so much more for an engineer than the other guy designing a distributed computing algorithm? It shows that you only dealt with the trivial things in SE. There are very complex areas in both disciplines and as much as I can find trivial things in SE I can do the same for EE. Let's just not pretend it's a science fiction when it's…

Developing a distributed computing algorithm I think would squarely fall into CS. Engineering is the application of stuff like that.

Re: The next two years of software engineering

#175
post #56

Sometimes I wonder if I made the wrong choice with software development. Even after getting to a senior role, according to this article, you're still expected to get more education and work on side projects outside of work. Am I supposed to want to code all the time? When can I pursue hobbies, a social life, etc.

To put it very directly - if you are OK with being good but not exceptional at your job, this is totally fine. If you want to be exceptional you will probably need to put in the extra work. Not everyone is OK with this tradeoff and it's totally fine to "just" be good and care more about having outside hobbies and a social life and etc.

I had a period of time where I really wanted to be exceptional. I spent many hours studying and working on side projects but it just never really clicked. I think I'm decent at what I do for work but more complicated topics (graphics programming, low level memory management, etc.) just seem to not stick, no matter how many hours I put into studying. Sometimes it feels like I'm forcing this career but after this many years it's hard to give it up. I do still enjoy it but I don't think I'll ever really get it.

Re: The next two years of software engineering

#176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The people who don't lose their jobs will also not be in a great spot, there wont be a guarantee that they will never lose their jobs, they will continue to live on the wobbly and uncertain foundation, will get fired for first no they say to the management. If software engineering falls, all the related industries will fall too, thus creating a domino effect, that none of the execs can imagine right now.

I really do wonder what sort of economy change is coming to us because companies will hypothetically need to hire less people to sustain the equal output of today. They can do that basically today so not even hypothetically anymore, it just needs some time to take off. The question IMO is, who will be creating the demand on the other side for all of these goods produced if so many people will be left without the jobs…

> The question IMO is, who will be creating the demand on the other side for all of these goods produced if so many people will be left without the jobs?

There is no reason why people will left without jobs. Ultimately, "job" is simply a superstructure for satisfying people's needs. As long as people have needs and the ability to satisfy them, there will be jobs in the market. AI change nothing in those aspects.

Re: The next two years of software engineering

#177
> The bottom line: Junior developer hiring could collapse as AI automates entry-level tasks

If AI automated entry-level tasks from today, that just means "entry-level" means something different now. It doesn't mean entry-level ceases to exist. Entey-level as we know it, but not entry-level in general.

Re: The next two years of software engineering

#178
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's funny you should ask this. When I started out, 30 years ago, here were the answers you'd get from most people: > Am I supposed to want to code all the time? Yes. > When can I pursue hobbies, Your hobby should be coding fun apps for yourself > a social life, etc. You social life should be hanging out with other engineers talking about engineering things. And the most successful people I know basically did exactly…

> You social life should be hanging out with other engineers talking about engineering things. Fuck. That. I worked at a faang, successful people weren't people that did engineering, it was people who did politics. The most successful people were the ones that joined at the same time as the current VP. Your hobbies need to be fun, to you. Not support your career. If its just there to support your career, its unpaid c…

I love your last point. I asked this question because I used to be the person that would spend 4+ hours after work every day trying to keep up with new tech and working on side projects. But now, I've gotten into art and it's really changed my perspective on things like this. I've spent many hours doing, as you call it, unpaid career development instead of pursuing hobbies, building up my friendships, and in general just having fun. It feels like I've taken life so seriously and I don't have much to show for it.

Re: The next two years of software engineering

#179

Sometimes I wonder if I made the wrong choice with software development. Even after getting to a senior role, according to this article, you're still expected to get more education and work on side projects outside of work. Am I supposed to want to code all the time? When can I pursue hobbies, a social life, etc.

>I made the wrong choice with software development.

I wonder what the best decision would have been. What job is AI immune and has a stable 40 hour week, no overtime, with decent pay. Teacher? Nursing?

Re: The next two years of software engineering

#180
Change is a constant for software engineers. It always has been. If your job is doing stuff that should be automated, either you are automating it or you are not a very good software engineer.

A few key fallacies at play here.

- Assuming a closed world assumption: we'll do the same amount of work but with less people. This has never been true. As soon as you meaningfully drop the price of a unit of software (pick your favorite), demand goes up and we'll need more of them. Also it opens the door to building software that previously would have been too expensive. That's why the amount of software engineers has consistently increased over the years. This despite a lot of stuff getting a lot easier over time.

- Assuming the type of work always stays the same. This too has never been true. Stuff changes over time. New tools, new frameworks, new types of software, new jobs to do. And the old ones fade away. Being a software engineer is a life of learning. Very few of us get to do the same things for decades on end.

- Assuming people know what to ask for. AIs do as you ask, which isn't necessarily what you want. The quality of what you get correlates very much to your ability you ask for it. The notion that you get a coherent bit of software in response to poorly articulated incoherent prompts is about as realistic as getting a customer to produce coherent requirements. That never happened either. Converting customer wishes into maintainable/valuable software is still a bit of a dark art.

The bottom line: many companies don't have a lot of in house software development capacity or competence. AI doesn't really help these companies to fix that in exactly the same way that Visual Basic didn't magically turn them into software driven companies either. They'll use third party companies to get the software they need because they lack the in house competence to even ask for the right things.

Lowering the cost just means they'll raise the ambition level and ask for more/better software. The type of companies that will deliver that will be staffed with people working with AI tools to build this stuff for them. You might call these people software engineers. Demand for senior SEs will go through the roof because they deliver the best AI generated software because they know what good software looks like and what to ask for. That creates a lot of room for enterprising juniors to skill up and join the club because, as ever, there simply aren't enough seniors around. And thanks to AI, skilling up is easier than ever.

The distinction between junior and senior was always fairly shallow. I know people that were in their twenties that got labeled as senior barely out of college. Maybe on their second or third job. It was always a bit of a vanity title that because of the high demand for any kind of SEs got awarded early. AI changes nothing here. It just creates more opportunities for people to use tools to work themselves up to senior level quicker. And of course there are lots of examples of smart young people that managed to code pretty significant things and create successful startups. If you are ambitious, now is a good time to be alive.

Post reply on HN