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We might have been slower to abandon StackOverflow if it wasn't a toxic hellhole

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Re: We might have been slower to abandon StackOverflow if it wasn't a toxic hellhole

#171

> "Recently, a graph of the total number of Stack Overflow questions over time started making rounds on the internet" Isn't that a graph of questions per timeframe, not total questions? If it was total questions, that would imply a massive cull of existing questions, not a decline in usage

"New questions over time", I suppose, was the intended phrasing; and yes.

Also, this is a new set of "rounds" it's making. Graphs like this have been getting shopped around off and on for a few years now.

Previous rounds of discussion famously include https://meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/433864 . The decline was even noted before ChatGPT, e.g. https://meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/413657.

Re: We might have been slower to abandon StackOverflow if it wasn't a toxic hellhole

#172

I think StackOverflow could have been saved from turning into a toxic hellhole if they'd had AI and LLMs in the mid 2010s. No seriously, hear me out. SO is infamous for overzealous mods closing questions left and right, calling you an idiot, and being generally unhelpful. I think these mods were/are burned out by dealing with mostly idiotic questions all day. They default to suspicion and hostility. If they'd had AI…

https://stackoverflow.blog/2012/08/21/stack-exchange-machine... They were on it in 2012! And no, it didn't help. The site's value was in providing users with answers to their questions, but that was never on the radar of the folks running SO. I guess they just assumed the free labor of the people that built the place would continue forever. Edit: I even told them at the time that this was not the right way to proceed…

You might also be interested in the Staging Ground feature introduced a few years ago.

Re: We might have been slower to abandon StackOverflow if it wasn't a toxic hellhole

#173
post #51

I get the point of moderating things, try to reduce duplication, low-effort, etc... but it is funny the gut reaction I feel (angry) when my post is auto-deleted (Reddit for example). For SO I remember having questions get blocked and accounts being blocked from downvoted questions. But I understand too, I could have researched more, it's one of those "I want the immediate reward/answer" vs. searching the old question…

> This actually could be a good argument for LLMs, you won't get told your question is dumb.

It is.

The consensus in the meta community is basically: we don't want AI on the site (although clearly the owners do); people who would benefit from generative AI can get basically all its benefit by using it off-site, as it's heavily trained on Stack Overflow (and agents can presumably search it) anyway. It's fine if people use that off-site; it keeps out unsuitable questions and is basically filling the role that conventional search used to before Google got so enshittified.

Re: We might have been slower to abandon StackOverflow if it wasn't a toxic hellhole

#174

Was stack overflow the last stand of web gamification?

The gamification was in large part misaligned with the site's objectives. It's a shame Atwood and Spolsky didn't realize the problems and didn't explicitly solicit and incorporate feedback about it basically ever. (Not that random user proposals were ever especially good, but.)

At Codidact we're trying to build systems that hand out privileges based on actions taken that are relevant to the privilege. There's still a reputation system but the per-user numbers are relatively de-emphasized. And posts are by default sorted by Wilson score, with separate up/down counts visible to everyone by default, so that downvotes on an upvoted post (and vice-versa) have meaningful effect and "bad" voting can be more easily corrected. There's also a system of "reactions" for posts so that people willing to put their username behind it can explicitly mark an answer as outdated or dangerous.

Re: We might have been slower to abandon StackOverflow if it wasn't a toxic hellhole

#175

[dupe] Discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46482345

This is a prime example of why I prefer HN’s moderation. On SO, even though you’re objectively wrong — this is a link to a completely different site and discussing it from a different angle — your active participation on the site would probably have given you the ability to close this conversation and ruin the discussion for those interested. I’m glad that HN doesn’t allow that, so we can roll our eyes at the obvious…

On Stack Overflow, splitting the posts between two targets would be "ruining it", because there is an explicit goal of keeping that information together. But more importantly, the entire point there is not to have free-running, threaded discussion. Obviously the practices should be different here.

Re: We might have been slower to abandon StackOverflow if it wasn't a toxic hellhole

#176

The correct way to use StackOverflow was not to ask questions there. You either found your answer coming in from a search engine, or you pretend the site does not even exist. I don't think it was supposed to be sustainable, but oh well.

It was explicitly supposed to be a thing that turns out to be inherently unsustainable.

But I'm not sure that Atwood and Spolsky (especially Atwood) realized that nature.

Re: We might have been slower to abandon StackOverflow if it wasn't a toxic hellhole

#177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not. A lot of moderators on SO thought that technology stayed the same from 2014 onward. So I'd often see questions that were exactly the same as the one I asked, but they'd be closed as a duplicate of a question that was subtly different in wording but totally different in technical content. And you would have had to be intimately aware of the systems the question was about to recognize the difference. Most of t…

That's what's odd to me. When you're composing a question it will dynamically show links to related answers. So the author has already seen possible duplicates, right? Yet them seem quick to play the Closed for Duplicate card. The other thing is it will say, "New Contributor, be nice." and their question will have -5 or more downvotes. I think that's because the auto closer needed -5 to trigger or something. I could…

> When you're composing a question it will dynamically show links to related answers. So the author has already seen possible duplicates, right?

Okay, presumably you're familiar with the experience of seeing these links. When you saw them, how much effort did you put into opening them in new tabs and checking whether they answer your question? I'm guessing, not a lot. The UI affordance isn't great. The semantic search is just not very good (and it has to filter through massive piles of dreck) and it constantly updates; it shows you answer counts and doesn't try to sort or filter what it shows you for quality; but most importantly someone writing a question isn't expecting it, and checking it breaks the flow of drafting the question.

> Yet them seem quick to play the Closed for Duplicate card.

My experience has been that the very large majority of these closures are correct, and the large majority of closures complained about on the meta site are very obviously correct and the objections often boil down to trivialities and/or a general opposition to the idea of closing duplicates at all (without attempting to understand the reasons for doing so).

> The other thing is it will say, "New Contributor, be nice." and their question will have -5 or more downvotes. I think that's because the auto closer needed -5 to trigger or something. I could be wrong. Either way, to a newbie it just looks like they're piling on hate for no reason.

No. It's because the downvotes are for quality rating and are explicitly not intended as a rebuke to the OP, regardless of account age or reputation. Also because they affect sort order; because non-duplicates can't be immediately closed, people who want the question closed (note: the explicit, sole purpose of closing a question is to prevent it from receiving new answers) have a vested interest in hiding it from the sort of users who try to answer everything without heed to quality or suitability.

Re: We might have been slower to abandon StackOverflow if it wasn't a toxic hellhole

#178

I'm surprised at how non-obvious LLMs are for that decline chart. SO peaking in 2014 is not what I would have expected.

There was already tension in, like, 2011 or 2012. If you check the meta site there's a huge volume of posts from 2014, including probably the majority of the "classics" that experienced curators trot out to try and explain policy to people. A lot of the time I think about how something has been a problem for years, and I search on the meta site for previous discussion, and find someone from 2014 saying that it had already been a problem for a while.

Re: We might have been slower to abandon StackOverflow if it wasn't a toxic hellhole

#179
post #11

Speaking as someone that was a SO front-page contributor, and at one brief time the top of the pops on the C++ tag, I didn't think it was so bad. And you got a free t-shirt! What you have to understand is the avalanche of low-quality questions that came in, pushed by "academics" who should have known better, telling students things like "just ask on SO - they will write it for you", which is bad on so many levels. Bu…

How on earth did wokeness even come up there? You’d have zero notion of my political leanings if you only read the words I’d written there. How badly do you have to phrase a question or answer to have it downvoted for being not-woke? “So I’m trying to write a GET route in FastAPI, which has a great ass, by the way, amirite?, and I’m getting the error that…”

The complaint is about back-room drama rather than user-facing activity. https://meta.stackexchange.com/search?q=monica is a good starting point.

Re: We might have been slower to abandon StackOverflow if it wasn't a toxic hellhole

#180

This topic has been beaten to death, but the defenders of the toxic environment (including the SO founders) have never understood why the environment they promoted killed SO. It's not because people disliked the rudeness, though that didn't help and was never necessary. It's because the toxicity became the only goal. And the toxicity replaced both accuracy and usefulness. I wanted to learn web development during the…

Exactly. I dare to say that it was a matter of UX. The experience i got was that you arrived at a SO question from Google and the accepted answer was from years ago and irrelevant at the present time.

They did a quick patch by letting you sort answers by some attribute, but darn, that's low effort product/ux dev. What did those teams do in 10 years??

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