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How I’m Making Five-Figures A Month Off Bootstrapped Products

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Re: How I’m Making Five-Figures A Month Off Bootstrapped Products

#171

Post by ahoyhere »

Evbn wrote: post #144
patio11 wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Amy certainly has a bit of hustle to her, but it should't be an imposing amount of it. She'd tell you that she doesn't even work 40 hours a week, partly out of lack of desire to and partly for medical reasons. I'm amazed by the "work equals money ergo lots of money equals lots of work" mental script. Do I have any credibility on this topic? I've said this for six years: you can make substantial amounts of money on pr…

Your last two sentences got interesting. Amy may be a great programmer with a great product, but her income was predicated from writing copy and marketing for that product (and I further note that some people, like the Rich Dad guy, skip the product stuff and just write copy to sell fluff). Maybe I could make a product like freckle, but as you famously constantly argue, I don't make money writing software, the money…

"Amy may be a great programmer with a great product, but her income was predicated from writing copy and marketing for that product "

vs

"Amy may be a great programmer with a great skillet, but her income was predicated on creating a resume, going to a job interview, getting hired, and actually showing up at the office and doing the work her employer desired"

What's the difference here? The first paragraph is some kind of evidence of moral inadequacy, but the second, totally fine, normal, laudable?

Add "had a fantastic GitHub profile and contributed to OSS" and… don't these two sound exactly alike?

Re: How I’m Making Five-Figures A Month Off Bootstrapped Products

#172

Post by ahoyhere »

Evbn wrote: post #146
ahoyhere wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's actually an extremely powerful marketing technique to tell people exactly who the product is wrong for. It's an extremely powerful marketing technique to shape the product from its very beginning to discourage certain types of customers. Honesty is a killer app in marketing, assuming you pick your customer base (audience) carefully. That's how I've made lots of money. How you are describing "marketing" is actual…

The technique you describe here is not the same as honesty. Example: "This product is not for uncreative people who think you have to work 60 he's a week at a desk to retire at 70." is a subtle appeal to snobbery/wishful thinking that makes them want to prove they are creative get-aheaders, and they can "prove" that buy joining your customer base.

Where on any of our product pages is there a phrase like that?

On the other hand, check out patio11's Lifecycle Emails page for frank honesty such as:

"Do you not have a shipped product yet? Ship something. Do not buy this course. Well-implemented lifecycle emails do not ship software."

Or, on the sales page for my class,

"If you can’t make these chats on a regular basis, you should not attend."

Where's the sexy ego-revving in these simple statements?

Re: How I’m Making Five-Figures A Month Off Bootstrapped Products

#173

Post by infinite8s »

larrys wrote: post #135
bdunn wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm just confused about why you think I'm running a smoke-and-mirrors shop. I have a ton of testimonials from people thanking me for helping them raise their rates. If you email me, I'll send them to you. I take a lot of offense that you think I have "the proper degree of BS mixed together with things I've learned in a short period of time" and that I'm "taking advantage of people." I am delivering value in exchange…

"you think I'm running a smoke-and-mirrors shop" Where in my comment did I say you were running a smoke and mirrors shop? Show me the words that implied that in my comment? (Others have of course - I didn't say "yeah I agree" either.) I asked you a question and gave you an opportunity to detail "why your advice is so valuable" and I gave you my reasons (before asking that) why I was skeptical. "I have a ton of testim…

"Where in my comment did I say you were running a smoke and mirrors shop? Show me the words that implied that in my comment?"

You mention that he's "got the proper degree of BS mixed together with things that [he's] learned in a short period of time and the ability to take advantage of people's generally trusting nature", and then immediately following that you bring in a story about how when you first started you tricked a major client into thinking you were running a shop with several employees, with the implication that you were also able to "take advantage of people's generally trusting nature"

Re: How I’m Making Five-Figures A Month Off Bootstrapped Products

#174

Post by ahoyhere »

peterjancelis wrote: post #15
bdunn wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's the ejunkie default, it should be fixed now - did you email me about it? I'm more than happy to manually resend.

Yeah I did email you about it earlier today as I wanted to read your book this weekend :) My apologies if I am being too impatient. If it's the default setting I agree you went with it. (Amy Hoy would call this "worry about it when you are rich" wouldn't she?)

Not sure what the original problem was because the OP's been edited but probably, that sounds like something I'd say… sorta ;) I rarely use the r-word ("rich") but there is definitely a list of problems I categorize as "Great Problems to Have."

Re: How I’m Making Five-Figures A Month Off Bootstrapped Products

#175

Post by orangethirty »

mingmecca wrote: post #73
orangethirty wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A software developer can be one without being in the software business. No need to market anything, ever. Now, if you want to sell software, then you better learn how to sell. The depressing truth about the software business is that most of the success stories take the form "and then I started spending all my time on marketing, and my business took off!". What's depressing is this line of thinking. You just can't pro…

It's depressing because to a typical cynical programmer (and we're prone to be cynics spending our time looking for bugs) selling anything has a coat of slime on it. Marketing is mostly about deception and half-truths, and promoting a product effectively means maximizing the positives and minimizing/omitting the negatives: "Look at this shiny car!" (engine leaks oil) "Buy our shiny lightweight computer!" (can't chang…

I wish I could pull out a chair and have a long talk about marketing with you. Not because I think you are wrong, obtuse, or even a cynic. You are not. But due to the fact that you sound exactly like me some years ago. Hopefully, the following lines will save you the trouble I faced, and the failures I had to crawl out of.

Marketing is mostly about deception and half-truths, and promoting a product effectively means maximizing the positives and minimizing/omitting the negatives: "Look at this shiny car!" (engine leaks oil) "Buy our shiny lightweight computer!" (can't change battery) etc...

Marketing is about showcasing the world your ideas. It is not about deception, although some people do deceieve others through it. Real marketing, the one you and me experience at a hundred percent is something that you don't realize exists. You never heard it. Saw it. Or even thought of it. It simply resonates with your ideas, your self, and your values. The aroma of a pure rythmic parallelism between us and what we want to become. That is marketing.

In the 1980's, when Steve Jobs set out to market Apple, he understood the true meaning of marketing. Jobs set out to showcase the world the ideas behind Apple. That is why the original series of advertisements set out to show Apple as more than a computer company. It was an idea. A new idea. The computer did not have to be boring, or tied down to social structures. It was fun. Modern. The future. Apple was about freedom from the regular business computer. That idea is still living these days in the form of iDevices and Macs. In a world of boring Windows-based PCs, the Apple computer and device are still showcasing the original Apple idea. There is a better way to use technology. Such way is the Apple way (according to their marketing, not my opinion).

Did it work for Apple? Yes. Did Jobs set out to deceive people? No. Could they have sold millions and millions of devices based on a marketing lie? No.

The problem with us hackers is that we tend to forget that the world is not all black and white. Not every salesman is out to get us. Some really do want to help us. Like that insurance agent selling Cancer policies. Go ahead and talk to one of them. Ask them how many people has the policies he sells saved from starving. How many children will have an education or even a roof to live because their deceased parent bought a Cancer policy from him/her. For a programmer, a Cancer policy is just a lottery. For the rest of the world, it can be the difference between life and death. That is why they are marketed like that. It is real.

Re: How I’m Making Five-Figures A Month Off Bootstrapped Products

#176

Post by ryanwaggoner »

zenocon wrote: post #160
ryanwaggoner wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. I could have raised my rate at any time, but I didn't until I read the book. If you haven't raised your rates for seven years , I'm guessing that you've thrown away six figures of lost income. I say this based on an assumption founded on the observation that something like 98% of freelance developers are undercharging for no reason at all. I was. You are. Even just taking inflation into account, you should be char…

You make some valid points. I am undercharging. Most projects I go into, I end up doing the work of 5-10x of their engineers. I know this. I've known it for a long time. It is the reason I went into consulting in the first place -- that and the fact that I don't want to deal with the politics and bullshit that goes with the standard corporate environment. I build stuff and get out. That said, I think we're still talk…

I think it really, singly comes down to just raising your rate -- am I wrong?

For me, it was two things:

1. Realizing that I should (and can) raise my rates in a simple type-in-a-higher-number sense. Yes, I knew this in a vague sense, but the book really drove it home for me.

2. The other rate increase that I plan to work on over the next 6-12 months is a transition from "freelance programmer" to "engineering consultant who delivers business results". Like you said in your example, if you're doing the work of 5-10 engineers, I think there's real value in being able to demonstrate this in a quantitative way and charge accordingly. And the book definitely helped in that regard as well.

Again, for me it was worth it to pay the money just to read some examples, hear about some rates that others were charging, and dedicate some time to thinking about this. $25 just isn't that much money to me in the scope of being able to improve my business. Maybe I could have done it without the book, but I figured it was worth risking $25 to find out if I could do it better with the book.

Re: How I’m Making Five-Figures A Month Off Bootstrapped Products

#177

Post by timf »

bravoyankee wrote: post #119
bdunn wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm just confused about why you think I'm running a smoke-and-mirrors shop. I have a ton of testimonials from people thanking me for helping them raise their rates. If you email me, I'll send them to you. I take a lot of offense that you think I have "the proper degree of BS mixed together with things I've learned in a short period of time" and that I'm "taking advantage of people." I am delivering value in exchange…

You and Patrick have done an exemplary job of leveraging the herd mentality, but some of us are getting tired of the pitch. How many times are you going to try and milk this cow?

Patrick was writing prolifically here and on his blog for years with no relevant product at all, just a lot of interesting insight into his bingo operation. The recent lifecycle email course is his first product directly relevant to us, your comment about being tired of the pitch is confusing.

Re: How I’m Making Five-Figures A Month Off Bootstrapped Products

#178

Post by infinite8s »

ahoyhere wrote: post #171
Evbn wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your last two sentences got interesting. Amy may be a great programmer with a great product, but her income was predicated from writing copy and marketing for that product (and I further note that some people, like the Rich Dad guy, skip the product stuff and just write copy to sell fluff). Maybe I could make a product like freckle, but as you famously constantly argue, I don't make money writing software, the money…

"Amy may be a great programmer with a great product, but her income was predicated from writing copy and marketing for that product " vs "Amy may be a great programmer with a great skillet, but her income was predicated on creating a resume, going to a job interview, getting hired, and actually showing up at the office and doing the work her employer desired" What's the difference here? The first paragraph is some ki…

I think the problem is that the people who are attacking the original post would like to make lots of money with only programming skills. Unfortunately, as patio11 and others constantly repeat here, most people don't value code, they value results that solve a business problem, and this requires the ability to sell those results.

Re: How I’m Making Five-Figures A Month Off Bootstrapped Products

#179

Post by ahoyhere »

larrys wrote: post #135
bdunn wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm just confused about why you think I'm running a smoke-and-mirrors shop. I have a ton of testimonials from people thanking me for helping them raise their rates. If you email me, I'll send them to you. I take a lot of offense that you think I have "the proper degree of BS mixed together with things I've learned in a short period of time" and that I'm "taking advantage of people." I am delivering value in exchange…

"you think I'm running a smoke-and-mirrors shop" Where in my comment did I say you were running a smoke and mirrors shop? Show me the words that implied that in my comment? (Others have of course - I didn't say "yeah I agree" either.) I asked you a question and gave you an opportunity to detail "why your advice is so valuable" and I gave you my reasons (before asking that) why I was skeptical. "I have a ton of testim…

Arguing semantics -- e.g. "you said 'testimonial' instead of 'quote'" -- is the last refuge of scoundrels. But that's okay. Just like you with your "BS" and "taking advantage of" and off-handed tales of deceit, I mean scoundrel in a nice way.

Re: How I’m Making Five-Figures A Month Off Bootstrapped Products

#180

Post by zenocon »

ahoyhere wrote: post #167
zenocon wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why not just raise your rate regardless of some book -- isn't that really the take away message? I've also been consulting as an independent for 7 years now. I have not raised my rate, but nor have I lowered it (ever). I have turned down plenty jobs, and some have walked away because they did not want to pay the rate, but I have been doing this 40+ hours / week for 7 years now. I do feel like it is time to raise my r…

Why go to a therapist, when you can talk to yourself? Why call a plumber when you can buy a wrench on Amazon? Why go to a doctor when you can look up symptoms on Medscape? Why pay for a gym membership, when you can do P90x at home… hell, why buy P90x tapes, you know what you ought to be doing, everybody knows that all you have to do is burn more calories than you eat, and you can use some heavy books or angry cats yo…

When the time comes to negotiate terms, it is a short conversation.
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