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I'm returning my Framework 16

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Re: I'm returning my Framework 16

#171

Post by Hackbraten »

_cenw wrote: post #103
comte7092 wrote: post #8

I appreciate the authors thoughtful review here, but I can’t help but be frustrated by the constant lack of understanding of the core value proposition of framework both in this post and in many comments here on hn. Frequently the author brings up that for 2,000 euros they expect a premium experience, but no where is there an evaluation of the value granted by upgradability and repeatability of the machine, and only…

[flagged]

I feel the same.

When I learned that Framework started sponsoring DHH's distro, my immediate thought was that I'm not going to buy anything from them ever again.

On the other hand, you can boycott only so many companies before you start boycotting yourself out of existence. One has to draw the line somewhere.

I just hope Framework is going to come to its senses and eventually stop supporting distros that are controlled by an openly racist individual.

Re: I'm returning my Framework 16

#172

Post by ip26 »

HeWhoLurksLate wrote: post #157
ip26 wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Upgradable to what ? The ability to upgrade is well and good, but suppose the “endgame” configuration of an upgradable laptop was worse than the very base model of a non-upgradable. Why would you care about upgradability then?

Upgrading to a new processor, or in the case of Framework, perhaps better hinges or keyboards or the like is IMO much more important to the long term desirability of a laptop than a 5% better keyboard or trackpad or RGB LEDs on the chassis. I feel like the term "endgame" has completely lost its meaning - an "endgame" laptop is likely to be wholly irrelevant in at most ten years, especially so if you buy a super high…

Yeah, it’s a dumb term, sorry. Top spec? Whatever it is.

Certainly it’s fair to argue that the top spec will continue to grow year over year, like happens with long lived desktop CPU sockets. Framework is bearing this out! But that spec does have to actually be GOOD!

This is the hard part about what they are trying to do. Is a 12th gen in a Framework better than a 10th gen in an fully integrated laptop? If not, what does being able to upgrade to 12th gen mean?

The IBM PC platform worked so well because every annual component upgrade was an immense step forward. The macs, by contrast, began to dominate when the annual upgrades began to provide less benefit than seamless vertical integration did…

Re: I'm returning my Framework 16

#173

Post by kelnos »

trueismywork wrote: post #167

> The Framework 16 weights about 2.2 kg according to my kitchen scale. For comparison, my X1 Carbon weights 1.3 kg. That may not seem like a big difference, but the extra kilogram makes carrying around the Framework 16 more difficult. In particular, I don't feel comfortable carrying it with just one hand while this isn't a problem with the X1. The author wanted a bigger laptop but the straight goes and compares it to…

Yeah I never get this complaint about 16" laptops. Hell, I don't really get 16" laptops at all: they're huge! You're making a very strange trade off: they're only barely portable, and you lose a lot of the power and flexibility you'd get with a desktop.

Re: I'm returning my Framework 16

#174

Post by thenobsta »

justarandomname wrote: post #17

I've had a Framework 13 for nearly a year, been very happy with it, I've taken it on international work trips but it mostly sits on my desk with external displays attached. I ran Windows on it until I switched jobs, now its Ubuntu. I also have an X1 Nano, which I love too, its the around-the-house laptop and a great little machine but whenever it dies, if I replace it at all, it will likely be with another Framework…

Same. I'm very happy with my FW13 too. It replaces the MBA for my purposes -- dev on linux (mostly webdev on this machine, have a remote machine for gpu/heavy work), web browsing, streaming, some very light gaming (portal 2 on steam).

I'm waiting on that test too :) a few more cpu generations and I'll be itching to upgrade. I'm excited to for that to happen.

Re: I'm returning my Framework 16

#175

Post by osigurdson »

justin66 wrote: post #94
comte7092 wrote: post #8

I appreciate the authors thoughtful review here, but I can’t help but be frustrated by the constant lack of understanding of the core value proposition of framework both in this post and in many comments here on hn. Frequently the author brings up that for 2,000 euros they expect a premium experience, but no where is there an evaluation of the value granted by upgradability and repeatability of the machine, and only…

> I think ultimately what frustrates me is that people don’t consider the ability to repair or upgrade your machine part of a “premium” experience, but that’s is just something I have to accept. I think it is unfortunate that our consumerist culture places so little value on it though. Buying one of the original Frameworks and a Macbook Air at roughly the same time made me realize how little I actually care about upg…

Agree. I want rock solid Linux compatibility with mac like hardware quality / battery life and a Thinkpad like toughness and keyboard. I don't really need it to be upgradable as long as it lasts 8 years.

Re: I'm returning my Framework 16

#177

Post by spankibalt »

comte7092 wrote: post #8

I appreciate the authors thoughtful review here, but I can’t help but be frustrated by the constant lack of understanding of the core value proposition of framework both in this post and in many comments here on hn. Frequently the author brings up that for 2,000 euros they expect a premium experience, but no where is there an evaluation of the value granted by upgradability and repeatability of the machine, and only…

> "People (not necessarily the author, [...] will lament how manufacturers don’t have upgradable ram, etc and then turn around and are upset at the bulkiness of a repairable laptop, or the price."

I desire sturdyness and repairability but anything larger than a 14-inch machine (and then only either as detachable or at least convertible) is completely inacceptable to me. And that 14-incher better be a dream. In other words: As small and light as possible, as big and heavy as neccessary.

Re: I'm returning my Framework 16

#178

Post by Hackbraten »

realusername wrote: post #108
RickyLahey wrote: post #77

my tip to people who don't like mac os. buy a macbook pro, disable System Integrity Protection (SIP), gut the OS, live in the terminal and browser. works way better than linux (10h+ battery life, SoC with a lot of memory) and you will barely notice that you're on mac os. It's not windows. there will be no forced updates and surprises.

Personally I just can't, I really hate the UI and the software stack. Sure as long as you are in the terminal you don't notice it but at some point you are going to need to open Finder (and Finder really sucks, sorry) and you are going to need to install software and homebrew is in the same category as npm.

> and homebrew is in the same category as npm.

Homebrew runs against a curated and tested package repository maintained by a dedicated team of vetted maintainers.

NPM is free-for-all with zero curation. Anyone can upload whatever they want.

Re: I'm returning my Framework 16

#179

Post by kelnos »

justarandomname wrote: post #19
debo_ wrote: post #10

Author doesn't cite how they decided that only MacBook or Framework would fit their needs. I've never had trouble with Dell laptops with any Linux distro I cared about. If I wanted a powerful Linux laptop, I'd probably look at something like Dell's premium model: https://www.dell.com/en-ca/shop/laptops-ultrabooks/dell-16-p...

My first laptop back in 2005ish or so was a Dell Latitude. Ran XP until Vista came out and I switch to Linux which it ran for a couple years until it was stolen from my car. I recall unimaginable pain and suffering due to wifi, which, IIRC, I side-stepped by buying replacing the stock Broadcom card with an Atheros card and I'm certain is not nearly much of an issue as it used to be.

When it comes to WiFi on Linux, 2005 experiences are irrelevant to today.

Re: I'm returning my Framework 16

#180

Post by Terretta »

kelnos wrote: post #165
DetectDefect wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> an evaluation of the value granted by upgradability and repeatability of the machine The market assigns almost no value to these tenets, nor do the consumers participating in it.

Your assertion seems to be trivially proven false, given that Framework still exists as a going concern. Though I suppose what you say is perhaps still true, if you allow "almost" to do a lot of work.

One can move the word "almost" to make more sense: it's only almost a market even if everyone in it is rabid about those features.

It's not a substantial share of the overall laptop market because, quoting from above…

people don’t consider the ability to repair or upgrade your machine part of a “premium” experience ... will lament how manufacturers don’t have upgradable ram, etc and then turn around and are upset at the bulkiness of a repairable laptop

The flip side is technorati gripe about Apple (lack of) repairability, but their revealed preference then shifts back to this: a claim to want reliability but actions of shoppings for premium performance and fit and finish in slim value-holding form factors. To achieve those, particularly with durable value (and resale value to prove it), there's a way to make things that "repairability" generally makes compromises from.

Research has suggested Apple's approach — laptops with 4x the usable and resalable life span — results in less e-waste per capita than both the disposable and repairable ecosystems.

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