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NYC congestion pricing cuts air pollution by a fifth in six months

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Re: NYC congestion pricing cuts air pollution by a fifth in six months

#171

Post by rsynnott »

AniseAbyss wrote: post #59
Pooge wrote: post #24

I live in Europe so it's still very much considered pedestrian-friendly, but cars and roads scale so bad. Especially with population density going through the roof in bigger cities. I wonder how it's going to look like in 50 years.

NYC has a better subway system than most Euro cities. Probably because NYC has the advantage of being old before cars became affordable. For a few decades it seemed planners all over the world really had this crazy idea that everyone would just drive around for everything. Just put 10 lane highways straight through your town!

> NYC has a better subway system than most Euro cities. Probably because NYC has the advantage of being old before cars became affordable.

Nah, it's just because it's very, very big, nearly 9 million people. Very big European cities have comparable transport, but most European cities are smaller than this.

NYC's subway system is a little smaller than London's (though its commuter rail system is much smaller), and both cities have similar populations. And a little bigger than Paris's.

(Comparing metro system sizes can get messy, because there are things that are called metros but aren't really (eg SF muni metro, which shares space with cars) and things which aren't usually called metros but are metro-like (some S-bahn type things, in particular))

Re: NYC congestion pricing cuts air pollution by a fifth in six months

#172

Post by rsynnott »

khannn wrote: post #73
petesergeant wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The American mind truly struggles with the concept of people not owning cars

The European mind quivers at the thought of a state with a bigger area than most EU countries I like walking around new cities, but a lot of people are car life types

... I mean, that seems entirely irrelevant when discussing New York City, which is, geographically, rather small (though very dense).

Re: NYC congestion pricing cuts air pollution by a fifth in six months

#173

Post by rsynnott »

CGMthrowaway wrote: post #72
petesergeant wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The American mind truly struggles with the concept of people not owning cars

We did perfect their mass production, and it propelled us to the world's largest economy. The only country with better GDP growth over the last 100 years is Japan, and that's in large part because they perfected the manufacture of cars themselves.

> We did perfect their mass production

I mean... Toyota would beg to differ (and realistically US car manufacturers today are closer to the Toyota model of car mass production than the traditional US one).

Re: NYC congestion pricing cuts air pollution by a fifth in six months

#174

Post by rayiner »

lmm wrote: post #139
rayiner wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Only if you build the city like Tokyo instead of like Dallas. Average commute in Tokyo is 45 minutes to an hour one way: https://nbakki.hatenablog.com/entry/2014/08/05/231455 . Average commute time in Dallas is 26 minutes one way: https://dallas.culturemap.com/news/city-life/dallas-suburb-s... I’m not aware of any transit-oriented city where average commute times are as low in absolute terms as in sprawling, car-depe…

> Average commute in Tokyo is 45 minutes to an hour one way: https://nbakki.hatenablog.com/entry/2014/08/05/231455 . Average commute time in Dallas is 26 minutes one way: https://dallas.culturemap.com/news/city-life/dallas-suburb-s ... People in Tokyo will accept a longer commute for the sake of a better job or housing or both, because the commute is less miserable (and also because employers pay commute costs). > I’…

From your article: “The automobile provides better access than transit in all cities we compared, except in Shanghai, China, where automobile reaches about 90% of the jobs reachable by transit at 30 min.”

Re: NYC congestion pricing cuts air pollution by a fifth in six months

#175

Post by rayiner »

lmm wrote: post #140
rayiner wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, individualized point to point travel is better. I just got back from Tokyo and Taipei, which have transit systems better than any European country. And it was still faster to Uber everywhere.

It's a tragedy of the commons. For an individual, private car is faster, but the resulting traffic ultimately makes things slower for everyone. Public transit in Tokyo is faster than private cars in car-oriented cities.

That’s not true. Public transit in Tokyo is slower than driving in Dallas or LA. Average one-way commute in LA is just over 30 minutes: https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/B080ACS006037. For Tokyo it’s 45-60 minutes based on sources I’ve seen online.

Re: NYC congestion pricing cuts air pollution by a fifth in six months

#176

Post by rayiner »

Mawr wrote: post #151
rayiner wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everywhere. I was staying right next to Tokyo Station, too. I went from a meeting in Roppongi Hills to a bookstore in Jimbocho. Apple Maps says 31 minutes by train and 24 minutes by Uber. And I was traveling alone this time. Last year when I went with my wife and three kids the differential was even more extreme. I’m convinced public transit is a major reason for the birth rate collapse in east asia.

> I’m convinced public transit is a major reason for the birth rate collapse in east asia. Sure thing. Just so we're on the same page, mind backing that up with the obvious basic research? You know, just a simple breakdown of birth rates vs public transit usage across the world. Rudimentary stuff.

There are studies showing that dense housing is correlated with lower birth rates. https://ifstudies.org/blog/more-crowding-fewer-babies-the-ef.... It’s possible that public transit has a similar effect.

Re: NYC congestion pricing cuts air pollution by a fifth in six months

#177

Post by crazygringo »

amanaplanacanal wrote: post #146
crazygringo wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

EV shuttles will come in lots of capacities. Vans, buses. But you won't need to worry about schedules or preset routes because it's all dynamic. Wherever there would be the most congestion is precisely where the app will give you the biggest discount to switch from your private vehicle into a bus, then switch back into another private vehicle for the last 5 minutes of your trip.

None of what you are saying has anything to do with being an EV vehicle.

Derp. Quite right. For some reason I was thinking about self-driving instead...

Re: NYC congestion pricing cuts air pollution by a fifth in six months

#178

Post by dangus »

rayiner wrote: post #133
uolmir wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everywhere? This is a crazy thing to claim. I was also recently in Japan and I never took a car anywhere. I'm sure there are particular routes that are badly served but come on.

Everywhere. I was staying right next to Tokyo Station, too. I went from a meeting in Roppongi Hills to a bookstore in Jimbocho. Apple Maps says 31 minutes by train and 24 minutes by Uber. And I was traveling alone this time. Last year when I went with my wife and three kids the differential was even more extreme. I’m convinced public transit is a major reason for the birth rate collapse in east asia.

So you spend like 3-5x more than a train ticket to save 6 minutes?

Re: NYC congestion pricing cuts air pollution by a fifth in six months

#179

Post by tim333 »

hammock wrote: post #6

What did it do to GDP? (Sincerely asking)

Anecdotally, living in London where we have congestion charge, I doubt it changed GDP much. GDP is basically total spend and if people don't spend on one thing they'll probably spend on another.

In terms of real economic output I'd guess it helped a bit as it made things quicker for workmen who needed to get around while reducing the more leisure driving. But we've had lots of much larger changes like covid and brexit that would probably drown things out in the numbers.

Re: NYC congestion pricing cuts air pollution by a fifth in six months

#180

Post by dangus »

rayiner wrote: post #176
Mawr wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I’m convinced public transit is a major reason for the birth rate collapse in east asia. Sure thing. Just so we're on the same page, mind backing that up with the obvious basic research? You know, just a simple breakdown of birth rates vs public transit usage across the world. Rudimentary stuff.

There are studies showing that dense housing is correlated with lower birth rates. https://ifstudies.org/blog/more-crowding-fewer-babies-the-ef... . It’s possible that public transit has a similar effect.

A lot of obviously positive things correlated with lower birth rates, like not having half your kids die before they reach adulthood, being able to treat infections with antibiotics, not needing a crazy amount of labor to keep subsistence farming going.

Birth rate collapse itself is a positive thing, this planet can’t ecologically sustain pre-industrialization birthrates combined with modern medicine and life expectancy. Back in the mid-century there was a lot of academic concern about overpopulation.

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