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AI Is Breaking the Moral Foundation of Modern Society

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Re: AI Is Breaking the Moral Foundation of Modern Society

#171

Post by philistine »

zmgsabst wrote: post #82
philistine wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Someone needs to maintain and setup those efficient brand new looms. All I hear from AI is the promise that managers and owners will no longer need creative and managerial workers.

As many people as were employed as artisans? — are the new jobs on average as good as artisanship? Or so we displace 9/10 workers to worse or no jobs while 1/10 gets a valuable one? My understanding of AI is that it’s likely to represent the same 90:10 split — where some people operate those new AI systems, but most people are displaced to intellectual assembly lines. (Or unneeded, entirely.)

> As many people as were employed as artisans?

Counterintuitively, yes! Automation unlocked the birth of a worker class that could now afford the products made by automation, producing a virtuous spiral of growth. AI is breaking everybody's social compact. The workers' labour is used as training with nothing given back and the owners' consumers are unemployed giving you no market for your goods.

Re: AI Is Breaking the Moral Foundation of Modern Society

#172

Post by barrell »

r33b33 wrote: post #131
barrell wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not everyone is a nihilist

How is not caring about things having a "value" being a nihilist? If everything is absolutely free for everyone, you see that as a bad thing?

“Nothing holds any value” and “nothing costs any money” are two entirely different ideas. The former is nihilism. The latter is communism.

Neither paint a pretty picture in my book

Re: AI Is Breaking the Moral Foundation of Modern Society

#173

Post by palmotea »

sneak wrote: post #170
_DeadFred_ wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Video scoring people are feeling it. I think a world with Hanz Zimmer soundtracks, with Tron 2 with a Daft Punk soundtrack, is a richer world than one where soundtracks are machine generated. Creative people actually do feel this way. There are huge discussions about it going on by actual creative people. Why are you hand waving that away and saying if they are discussing it they must not be adding any value, therefo…

No movie studio would choose AI slop when people like John Williams or Hans Zimmer exist. That’s a ridiculous argument. It’s such a simple way to differentiate and compete. Whatever Williams cost, Lucas made it back 100x. If AI gets good enough to replace them, then we can have a different discussion - but I don’t think you get truly great art without the full spectrum of human emotion and experience - that is, full…

> No movie studio would choose AI slop when people like John Williams or Hans Zimmer exist.

I wouldn't be so sure. During the writers strike I heard the producers where hoping to replace a lot of their work with AI.

> but I don’t think you get truly great art without the full spectrum of human emotion and experience

The movie industry is in the business of selling tickets, and the TV industry is in the business of getting people to look at ads. Creating "truly great art" is not the priority, but sometimes happens because people are still involved.

Our choices as consumers are constrained. If they all get compromised at the same time, because the producers are following similar incentives, the market won't punish them.

Re: AI Is Breaking the Moral Foundation of Modern Society

#175

Post by disqard »

barrell wrote: post #5

An idea that has been living rent free in my head is that "AI is ultimately nothing but a pure destruction of value". It's promise is unlimited value to everyone on demand; but if everyone can do everything without any effort, it is no longer valuable. Value and scarcity go hand in hand. I realize the hyperbolic framing of the idea, but none-the-less I haven't been able to get it out of my head. This article feels li…

The way you articulated it, connected with a thought I've had (for over a year now):

AI is like oil, in that it's "burning" a resource that took geological timescales to accrue. Its value derives from the energy-dense and instantaneous act of combusting a fossil fuel, and in this particular part of the "terrain", it will be a local maximum for A Long Time.

Just like how it's taken absurdly long (still very much WIP) for human societies to prioritize weaning ourselves off of fossil fuels, I fear we are going to latch onto GenAI/LLMs pretty hard, and not let go.

Re: AI Is Breaking the Moral Foundation of Modern Society

#176

Post by venturecruelty »

UtopiaPunk wrote: post #167
barrell wrote: post #5

An idea that has been living rent free in my head is that "AI is ultimately nothing but a pure destruction of value". It's promise is unlimited value to everyone on demand; but if everyone can do everything without any effort, it is no longer valuable. Value and scarcity go hand in hand. I realize the hyperbolic framing of the idea, but none-the-less I haven't been able to get it out of my head. This article feels li…

Mmm, kind of. Scarcity is definitely fundamental under capitalism. But what do we do in a theoretical, post-scarcity society? The digitization of information and media combined with the Internet and widespread use of electronic devices practically means that in some important ways, we are already grappling with post-scarcity in certain fields. 600 years ago, "books" and other texts were rare and valuable, then there…

I know what you're getting at, but for the Socratic sake of things, I have bad news! :D

Electricity that is too cheap to meter is possible today. I'm pretty sure that we are technologically capable of producing enough solar panels to supply reasonable energy needs (ignoring AI data center nonsense, for now). I think this is happening already in certain countries, but the economics of it get weird, because even as a public utility, you have to charge something. A market that drives prices down to almost nothing will then cease to exist, and powerful people don't want that to happen.

The real solution is that governments should just build out power capacity and provide electricity as a service to its citizens, like healthcare and education. The solution we'll probably get is some Dickensian torment nexus where orphans are pushed into a meat grinder and our electric bills go up.

Re: AI Is Breaking the Moral Foundation of Modern Society

#177

Post by barrell »

disqard wrote: post #175
barrell wrote: post #5

An idea that has been living rent free in my head is that "AI is ultimately nothing but a pure destruction of value". It's promise is unlimited value to everyone on demand; but if everyone can do everything without any effort, it is no longer valuable. Value and scarcity go hand in hand. I realize the hyperbolic framing of the idea, but none-the-less I haven't been able to get it out of my head. This article feels li…

The way you articulated it, connected with a thought I've had (for over a year now): AI is like oil, in that it's "burning" a resource that took geological timescales to accrue. Its value derives from the energy-dense and instantaneous act of combusting a fossil fuel, and in this particular part of the "terrain", it will be a local maximum for A Long Time. Just like how it's taken absurdly long (still very much WIP)…

I like the comparison with fossil fuels, that feels very accurate. I hope we do not develop the same dependency.

Re: AI Is Breaking the Moral Foundation of Modern Society

#178

Post by barrell »

gaigalas wrote: post #145
barrell wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes but what happens to society when art, labor, "intelligence" and productivity all become abundant? These are not comparable to salt. You are comparing an apple to every orange tree that has ever existed.

we stole the promethean fire humans won't have to work again the spark of intelligence is now living in machines by the way, we still have to make small annoying interruptions to digital content to display ads, everything falls apart if we don't do that -- Something feels off in this whole idea. I think you guys are overestimating the importance of AI. It's just another commodity.

I think LLMs are just another commodity. I think AI would be something different.

Emphasis on the conditional tense.

Re: AI Is Breaking the Moral Foundation of Modern Society

#179

Post by dyauspitr »

parineum wrote: post #151
antonvs wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you suggesting that no meaningful distinction can be made in terms of morality between Trump and, say, Biden, Obama, Blair, the Bushes etc.? Some people will point to their supposed crimes or immoral actions while in office, having to do with execution of their duties as president. Large countries tend to do many questionable things. But the current US administration is pretty unique in terms of its corruption, a…

I'm suggesting that the morality of our leaders is not a barometer for the morality of the populace.

In a democracy there’s a correlation.

Re: AI Is Breaking the Moral Foundation of Modern Society

#180

Post by r33b33 »

barrell wrote: post #172
r33b33 wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is not caring about things having a "value" being a nihilist? If everything is absolutely free for everyone, you see that as a bad thing?

“Nothing holds any value” and “nothing costs any money” are two entirely different ideas. The former is nihilism. The latter is communism. Neither paint a pretty picture in my book

Define "pretty" picture. Everything free for everyone aka communism sounds amazing and tell me how it's better than what we have now with people starving and child amputees having to beg for pagpag in dumps of Manila.
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