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A new documentary about the history of forced psychiatric treatment in Spain

bbc.co.uk

171–180 of 201 posts

Re: A new documentary about the history of forced psychiatric treatment in Spain

#171
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Meanwhile, we have a crisis in the U.S. of people sleeping and dying in the streets because we shut down all the mental hospitals and involuntary commitment. Every system will have some percentage of adverse outcomes. Approaching the issue emotionally instead of dispassionately and with a view towards typical outcomes is an anti-social and dangerous approach.

... I mean, on what are you basing this assumption? Mass psychiatric institutionalisation has been phased out pretty much everywhere at this point; if your thesis is correct, how do you explain differing rates of homelessness (and in particular unsheltered homelessness, where the US more or less leads the developed world) between the US and other developed countries? Like, it seems more likely to be some other factor…

The issue in the US isn't lack of institutionalization, per se, it's the lack of mandatory mental health treatment. That is, it's very difficult and rare to require the mentally ill in the US to take medicine, even after repeatedly demonstrating an inability to control their conditions or even to take basic care of themselves. For one thing, there was an overcorrection in civil rights law that makes it difficult to establish a mandatory treatment plan. Secondly, because of lack of institutional beds and a will to use them, there's little backstop even for the few patients that are on court-ordered treatment and fail to comply.

While most countries have deinstitutionalized, they still make it much easier to force treatment on an out-patient basis. (This is true of drugs as well, which is part of the reason "harm reduction" often works better in Europe--a credible threat of involuntary hospitalization.) This was the original plan in the 1970s in the US, to transition to out-patient care, but it didn't pan out. The mental hospitals were closed, but rather than shift the funding to out-patient clinics and treatment, the funding was simply pulled altogether. And because of the civil rights law overcorrection, addressing this is more than simply re-establishing the funding. California, for example, restored hundreds of millions of funding in the past decade, but for various legal and inertial reasons, cities and counties simply won't force treatment plans on even the most desperately ill patients, even when they're harming themselves or others. Sadly, we're slipping back into using the penal system to house the mentally ill; there's much less political and institutional pushback than increasing the use of conservatorship and civil commitment.

The problem has been well understood for more than 40 years. Here's a 1984 piece from the NY Times that could be written the same today: Richard D. Lyons, "How Release of Mental Patients Began", https://www.nytimes.com/1984/10/30/science/how-release-of-me...

See also, Natasha Tracy, "In Defense of Mental Illness Conservatorship—Despite the Britney Spears Case", https://natashatracy.com/mental-illness-issues/mental-illnes...

Re: A new documentary about the history of forced psychiatric treatment in Spain

#172
post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Might take a karma hit for this, but whatever. Its the truth. Christians are more concerned about *causing* extreme child abuse, and then turning around and claiming its to "save them", so the abuse isnt reallllly abuse. Most of these camps cited are christian. And the people running them? Dogmatic christian fundamentalists. And these are the same types that run "pray the gay away" camps too. And my inflammatory, alb…

> When are we going to actually look at these issues dispassionately and realize that religion itself is the problem? Because it's not. I've been interrogating this sort of question for most of my life. I am a queer agnostic who grew up in a religious part of the South and saw shades of this kind of abuse firsthand, mostly around queerness. At first, I did blame religion, but with the benefit of hindsight, I realized…

Agreed. I've long thought that it's much more the case that a person's religion is a function of their values, not the other way around.

Or, put another way, if a person's religion conflicts with their values (including prejudices), which one is more likely to give first?

Re: A new documentary about the history of forced psychiatric treatment in Spain

#173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But what’s your non-religious basis for saying that those actions were bad? You pointed to empathy above. But empathy in humans is mainly directed to one’s own community. Animals and humans alike will happily take over the territory of rival clans. Which is why empathy didn’t prevent Europeans from colonizing the indigenous people of America. So what’s your basis for saying that, e.g., colonization was bad?

> empathy in humans is mainly directed to one’s own community. Speak for yourself. I won't confuse empathy with tribalism, as you do. I'll take humanism [1], the notion that every person is equal in rights. This is my moral basis. > humans alike will happily take over the territory of rival clans. Tribalism, again. You don't get past that, do you? > Which is why empathy didn’t prevent Europeans from colonizing the in…

They seem to be one of those individuals who cannot possibly comprehend the idea that many people simply find murder and rape to be horrible, awful acts that shouldn't be inflicted on others and hold that belief without needing to have the fear of god or an ancient collection of texts constantly reminding them to not rape and murder people.

The very idea of a person believing murder and rape to be horrible without a convoluted and often contradicting spiritual belief system is preposterous to them. Hence "rayiner"'s insistence that not treating people like shit simply must be a religious concept because "it sounds religious". These people genuinely believe someone not treating people like shit can only happen if you're terrified of going to hell or something.

They're somewhat rare but not rare enough. They're extremely dangerous people because, after all, the only thing keeping their desire to harm others in check is a fear of an ever elusive supernatural entity punishing them, instead of just simply not having such a desire.

Maybe the above isn't applicable to "rayiner" but people who say not treating people like shit "sounds religious" are almost always that type.

Re: A new documentary about the history of forced psychiatric treatment in Spain

#174
post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes I agree, which is probably why we should treat 18-year olds more as children than adults (although obviously they are in-between the two). Brains continue to develop to the age of about 25.

Brains continue to develop through our whole lives. The study that appeared to show them stopping development at 25 did not have any participants older than 25 . The difference between an 18-year-old and a 24-year-old is much more comparable to the difference between a 24-year-old and a 30-year-old. We should be treating teenagers much more as adults-in-training , in the sense of meaningfully giving them the tools to…

> Brains continue to develop through our whole lives.

After 50 years, they seem to decline.

Re: A new documentary about the history of forced psychiatric treatment in Spain

#175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even when it's gone really badly, like the Russian revolution, the revolution was a huge improvement. 80% illiteracy. I think revolutions almost always go well because you usually have to be really terrible to cause one to happen.

I would not characterize the Russian revolution as 'better.' Under the czar successful farming resulted in high taxes. Under the communists, successful farming made you a kulak, you died / starved to death, and then everyone else did too.

Under the Tsar's total system 80% of the population were illiterate. Keeping normal people illiterate requires immense oppression.

With the revolution Russia became much closer to a normal country.

Re: A new documentary about the history of forced psychiatric treatment in Spain

#176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even when it's gone really badly, like the Russian revolution, the revolution was a huge improvement. 80% illiteracy. I think revolutions almost always go well because you usually have to be really terrible to cause one to happen.

The Russian Revolution you are probably thinking of is the October Revolution of the Bolsheviks. But the tsar had already been overthrown by the February Revolution earlier that year, and some of the initial steps towards improving Russian literacy like the drafting of an orthography reform were already accomplished under that regime. Russia may well have seen major strides regardless, and the Bolsheviks are widely s…

No, I mean the whole thing. I mean that the revolution was necessary.

I don't think reforms of orthography were what mattered. What mattered was actually forcing people people to learn to read and also sending people out to teach them.

I don't see pre-1918 Cryllic as much more complicated that post 1918 Cryllic, but then I am of course literate and a Swede, so the only thing I find unusual is the symbol of softness, which is probably much less of a problem if you actually speak Russian.

Re: A new documentary about the history of forced psychiatric treatment in Spain

#177
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's an obvious quote, unless you think people are going to misunderstand and think that the BBC as a publication is talking about it's mother somehow. Quotes are generally well understood to be the view of the person giving it, not the publication.

I think people are going to expect the BBC to validate the correctness of quotes that they elevate into headlines. The interviewee didn't decide that that quote should be a headline, that's a creative choice by the BBC. By putting it there, they are implying that it is an accurate description of the story that follows. Is that incorrect?

Yes, it's incorrect. You seem to be under the impression that headlines need to be dry facts, which is just... not what they are or have ever been. Using a quote that draws you in to read is a normal, common thing to do.

Re: A new documentary about the history of forced psychiatric treatment in Spain

#178
post #24
post #2

A familiar story even today in the U.S: https://time.com/6997172/teen-torture-max-abuse-documentary/ “They are often a last resort for parents struggling with children with behavioral problems, suicidal thoughts, and substance abuse issues. Depending on the state, these rehab centers—a multi-billion-dollar industry—have few regulations, and there are no overarching federal standards governing them. Many are faith-bas…

If anybody wants to read a comic with the perspective of someone that went through one of these places and spent the years after fighting against them, I stumbled upon this one a few years ago: https://elan.school/ I am not in any way affiliated with the author, it's just one of the few books with real content that I've read in a long time.

Amazing read! Thanks for this

Re: A new documentary about the history of forced psychiatric treatment in Spain

#179
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Damn, my whole country must be guilty of neglect then!

Lol this is the USA. I've been interrogated when a stranger drove past my rather remote property, in the middle of nowhere, and saw that my child was walking about 50 feet "by herself" on her own fucking property(I was actually watching her, just from further away, so I was able to intervene before they called CPS). Welcome to America where you must watch the kid every second until they turn 18, except at the moment…

Interestingly the same America were teenagers end up with Epstein. Or were you can "homeschool" your kids.

Re: A new documentary about the history of forced psychiatric treatment in Spain

#180
post #117
post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

| Nobody wanted her tortured except the criminals torturing her. Oh, word? It's dope you know the inner thoughts of everyone involved. | Throwing Molotov cocktail is trivially an criminal offense. Article didn't say she threw them herself, 'a few' of a group she was part of did. Glad you're taking the maximalist, guilty until proven innocent, position on conviction by association in the Franco Regime.

I don’t think she’s guilty of anything. If I had a daughter that was engaging in violent political uprisings as a young teen, I’d try my best to get her help. That’s presumably why her parents sent her to a reform program. My point is the story is disjointed and sad, but there is little cohesive theme aside from pure tragedy, and the narrative presented makes no sense.

You realise Franco was a fascist dictator?

I would sure as hell hope people start throwing Molotov cocktails when someone like that comes into power.

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