Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Amazon strategised about keeping water use secret

source-material.org

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

171–180 of 242 posts

Re: Amazon strategised about keeping water use secret

#171

Post by iepathos »

imgabe wrote: post #67
jasonlotito wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We can. We do. It depends on what you are trying to count. If you think there is a single number that will answer everything, no. Are you going to include all the water ancestors used? After all, without that water, I wouldn't be here. You seem to think there is only one way to count. That's completely wrong. The important thing is whether you are clear about what you are counting and why. Your comment is odd. But le…

There is an honest way to count and that is to count the water directly used by the person or process in question. There are many other ways to count to make big scary number for clickbait article. I suppose we could also count all the water used by data center employees to take showers as "data center water usage" but that is dishonest. Those are people who exist and they are going to take showers whether they work…

Kind of surprised I have to point this out. Power companies do not generate the same amount of power regardless of whether that power would be consumed on their grid or not. They increase generation based on demand. Whether that power comes from high water consumption generation is based on location which determines which power sources are available in the local grid. A major part of why indirect water consumption from power generation is included in the standard WUEsource - water usage effectiveness metric - is because it makes it clear what the impact will be when assessing data center location and size. In other words, it's important to choose locations near power generation that doesn't consume water heavily. Yes, the amount of water used in generating electricity and the efficiency there is controlled power companies choices for power generation at their locations. Data centers control the location they are built in and without an estimate of indirect water usage they cannot strategize locations with lower environmental impact.

Contrary to your belief that it is about clickbait, it's actually just about how to accurately evaluate environmental impact of data centers backed by science and basic logic.

Re: Amazon strategised about keeping water use secret

#172

Post by voakbasda »

hydrogen7800 wrote: post #137
Ekaros wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is corruption for everything money touches... I actually wonder if there is not single moderately sized industry that does not have some interest group...

This sounds a bit sensationalized, and I'm not sure if it's the source from which I originally learned of the issue, but: >In a series of secret meetings in 1994, the Resnicks seized control of California’s public water supply. Now they’ve built a business empire by selling it back to working people. https://perfectunion.us/how-this-billionaire-couple-stole-ca...

When the water wars start, they will be the first against the wall.

Re: Amazon strategised about keeping water use secret

#173

Post by bittercynic »

nzach wrote: post #164

I find it really odd this recent push for discussions around the development of new datacenters. There is a plan for constructing a new high-capacity datacenter [edit: near my city]. And a lot of discussions in the media are done through an emotional tone around water and electricity usage. The media generally frames it as if installing a new datacenter would put the neighbors in risk of not having water or electrici…

One went in 1/4 mile from my home a couple years ago. I ignored the notices of development because I thought it was far enough that it wouldn't affect me, but it blocks the view of the mountains that I used to enjoy, and sometimes I can hear noise from its cooling system (I assume).

I wish I'd known what was coming, and gone to the meetings to oppose it.

Re: Amazon strategised about keeping water use secret

#174

Post by fainpul »

ahmeneeroe-v2 wrote: post #115
rtaylorgarlock wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And cheaper cow production, focused on grain-feeding, uses even more water than grass feeding; after spending a month in Switzerland, it's wild to see how addicted we Americans are to cheap beef.

"It's wild to see how Americans are able to procure an extremely high quality protein source inexpensively"

It's pretty easy if you don't care about animal welfare and environmental issues. As soon as you care, prices go up steeply.

Re: Amazon strategised about keeping water use secret

#175

Post by Finnucane »

imgabe wrote: post #10

> noted that it would be harder to reach its internal target if its calculations included “secondary” use—water used in generating the electricity to power its data centres, according to the document. Ok, when we're considering how much water a person uses, are we going to include the water used to grow the almonds you ate? Because agriculture is going to dwarf anything that data centers use.

I'd rather have the almonds than another data center.

Re: Amazon strategised about keeping water use secret

#176

Post by cm2012 »

mossTechnician wrote: post #165
cm2012 wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

yes and no. Most agriculture is not necessary for pure survival, especially water-needing crops in the desert. It's more luxury food products. In addition, increasing human productivity through technological innovation is the only thing that ever let us escape the malthusian trap.

> increasing human productivity through technological innovation is the only thing that ever let us escape the malthusian trap. How so? https://www.epi.org/productivity-pay-gap/

Many such charts as this: https://www.researchgate.net/figure/World-economic-history-a...

Re: Amazon strategised about keeping water use secret

#177

Post by Retric »

bittercynic wrote: post #173
nzach wrote: post #164

I find it really odd this recent push for discussions around the development of new datacenters. There is a plan for constructing a new high-capacity datacenter [edit: near my city]. And a lot of discussions in the media are done through an emotional tone around water and electricity usage. The media generally frames it as if installing a new datacenter would put the neighbors in risk of not having water or electrici…

One went in 1/4 mile from my home a couple years ago. I ignored the notices of development because I thought it was far enough that it wouldn't affect me, but it blocks the view of the mountains that I used to enjoy, and sometimes I can hear noise from its cooling system (I assume). I wish I'd known what was coming, and gone to the meetings to oppose it.

Large buildings 1000 feet from you are going to have some impact, but your complaint has little to with being a data center specifically. They could have put in a large warehouse and your view gotten blocked just the same, similarly the noise from the cooling system can be managed well or poorly on any building.

Re: Amazon strategised about keeping water use secret

#178

Post by xboxnolifes »

triceratops wrote: post #33
imgabe wrote: post #10

> noted that it would be harder to reach its internal target if its calculations included “secondary” use—water used in generating the electricity to power its data centres, according to the document. Ok, when we're considering how much water a person uses, are we going to include the water used to grow the almonds you ate? Because agriculture is going to dwarf anything that data centers use.

> are we going to include the water used to grow the almonds you ate? Beef too. It uses the same amount of water but people eat 30x as much annually.

Only 30x? Y'all eat a lot of almonds.

Re: Amazon strategised about keeping water use secret

#179

Post by amelius »

imgabe wrote: post #10

> noted that it would be harder to reach its internal target if its calculations included “secondary” use—water used in generating the electricity to power its data centres, according to the document. Ok, when we're considering how much water a person uses, are we going to include the water used to grow the almonds you ate? Because agriculture is going to dwarf anything that data centers use.

OK but rain water != tap water.

Re: Amazon strategised about keeping water use secret

#180

Post by fxtentacle »

nzach wrote: post #164

I find it really odd this recent push for discussions around the development of new datacenters. There is a plan for constructing a new high-capacity datacenter [edit: near my city]. And a lot of discussions in the media are done through an emotional tone around water and electricity usage. The media generally frames it as if installing a new datacenter would put the neighbors in risk of not having water or electrici…

Most new datacenters are powered with gas turbines (because utility grid connections are slow to deploy) and that'll surely affect everyone nearby.
Post reply on HN