Digital ID – The New Chains of Capitalist Surveillance • Hacker News Board

Re: Digital ID – The New Chains of Capitalist Surveillance

#171

Post by metalman » Fri, Oct 03, 2025, 11:46 AM UTC

theremust be balance in the use of digitised personal records that are availible to officials first, every single touch on someones info is recorded, and abuse in any form is punished, catestrophicaly. even the ticket checker, will be monitored, and if there is any discriminatory pattern to there "checking" they are prevented from any job or occupation that involves power ,and authority to prosecute. 2 no ministerial overrides,etc, without a court order 3 if the whole thing becomes unmanageble and leakes private info, it is trashed and we go back to cards

the people pushing this must face catestrophic consequences for failing to impilment a digital sytem of ID that is perfectly secure, and immune from abuse. no mights,no coulds, no excuses, no mumbling,no clauses, no public private, secure national ID, fuck with it and go to jail forever

Re: Digital ID – The New Chains of Capitalist Surveillance

#172

Post by xtiansimon » Fri, Oct 03, 2025, 11:47 AM UTC

Well. Yeah. The criticism of digital ID writes itself.

Given the US president’s inflammatory rhetoric about “Democrats” and “radical left”, this passage is an ominous prediction:

“Welfare can be rationed through digital checkpoints, ensuring that only the “deserving” poor receive aid. Policing is strengthened through biometric databases, making dissent and protest more dangerous.”

This mirrors the reasons for resisting Voter ID laws.

And given story after story written here on HN about corporations who are unaccountable for their poor data handling, given digital services routinely deny users fair resolutions for bad algorithmic actions or ambiguous “policy violations” and without human arbitration. (Ha! Or just Byzantine department compartmentalization).

If you’re not chilled by the thought of Universal Digital ID for every single bit of life’s necessities, why no? Are you team Ellison? Do you think there will be room for _you and your family_ on the Ark?

https://fortune.com/2025/09/28/larry-ellison-ai-surveillance...

Re: Digital ID – The New Chains of Capitalist Surveillance

#173

Post by agedclock » Fri, Oct 03, 2025, 11:48 AM UTC

pjc50 wrote: post #119

mytailorisrich wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you have an address, you have a proof of address. Digital IDs won't magically prove your address, and I don't think there plan is to include addresses. But if Dìgital IDs include address then you'll have to prove your address to the Digital ID first exactly like you prove your address now: with documents. Regarding right to work (you are changing topic): if you are a citizen you can show your passport, if you don'…

> If you have an address, you have a proof of address No! This is another one of those things that ends up being a serious problem for a few people, because the current proof of address standard is "utility bill". > you are changing topic This seems to be particularly bad in the "digital ID" discussion, almost every speaker including official sources seems to mean something slightly different by this phrase.

You just need something with you name and address. Bank statements, council tax, driver license (it doesn't even need to be a full one). It doesn't need to be a utility bill, it just often is one.

If you do not have a permanent address (I didn't for many years). You just need someone with a permanent address where these things can go e.g. friend or family member or you can pay a small amount for a letter box with a key (which is what I did).

Re: Digital ID – The New Chains of Capitalist Surveillance

#174

Post by the_mitsuhiko » Fri, Oct 03, 2025, 12:01 PM UTC

Tharre wrote: post #151

the_mitsuhiko wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Austrian version (which I use an appreciate a lot) allows some hardware FIDO2 tokens instead of a smartphone. Guarantee? Not by law but it will be hard for them to take that away.

> Guarantee? Not by law but it will be hard for them to take that away. Last year they removed the ability to register[0] yubikey FIDO2 tokens affected by the EUCLEAK 'vulnerability', despite it not posing any security risk even by their own admission, and nobody seems to have cared. The whole thing screams security theater, they require the much more expensive FIDO2 Level 2 keys for no reason (which limited you to j…

You don't have to tell me, I absolutely hate that passkeys support attestation. But there is pressure to support a non smartphone based sign in, and it does exist.

Re: Digital ID – The New Chains of Capitalist Surveillance

#175

Post by Muromec » Fri, Oct 03, 2025, 12:03 PM UTC

mytailorisrich wrote: post #128

pjc50 wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you have an address, you have a proof of address No! This is another one of those things that ends up being a serious problem for a few people, because the current proof of address standard is "utility bill". > you are changing topic This seems to be particularly bad in the "digital ID" discussion, almost every speaker including official sources seems to mean something slightly different by this phrase.

> because the current proof of address standard is "utility bill". Because utility bills are the simplest. Obviously you can show a tenancy or lodger agreement, or letters from "official sources". If you have nothing then Digital IDs won't help you anyway because, if they do include address, you will also need to start by providing a proof of address to the Digital ID system!

>If you have nothing then Digital IDs won't help you anyway because, if they do include address, you will also need to start by providing a proof of address to the Digital ID system!

The way it works where it works -- you register with municipality and then whenever you need something, they either give a letter with your address (and maybe charge 25 bucks for it) or the agency gets it from the registry maintained by municipality on the need to know basis.

Since the need-to-know basis is set by law, your explicit consent isn't asked for.

Re: Digital ID – The New Chains of Capitalist Surveillance

#176

Post by scott_w » Fri, Oct 03, 2025, 12:25 PM UTC

agedclock wrote: post #165

scott_w wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is not an argument, and is merely a way to shut someone up because you don't like them disagreeing with you. It is quite a loathsome tactic. Ok, let me break the argument down for you: 1. Person needs job 2. Person doesn't have job 3. Person therefore is low on money 4. Person needs to prove right to work to get job 5. Person needs money to buy proof of right to work (+ time to receive it) 6. Person needs mone…

I understand this process that you outline can conceivable happen. However this scenarios is still extremely unlikely. Firstly the cost of a replacement Birth certificate is low. Failing that, there are other support mechanism in place provided by charities, family, friends and even the state itself, in the unlikely event they are that are completely destitute. None of this says anything about whether I am privileged…

> However this scenarios is still extremely unlikely.

I watched a video just yesterday from someone (middle class) who explained that, by not having a passport, it took him weeks to get the necessary documentation together to prove his right to work in the UK. As a UK citizen.

> None of this says anything about whether I am privileged or not.

Oh boy, let's see:

> It merely means that they may cost a relatively small amount of money.

> What you are showing is simply a "bigotry of low expectations".

> What you are describing now I would imagine is discriminatory and thus illegal.

Out of this comment alone.

> I read it fine the first time thank you.

Except you completely misunderstood what I said, so you didn't "read it fine."

> However IANAL.

I can tell.

> the problem is with the potential employer in this circumstance.

Which primarily hurts the person who needs to work. What do you propose they do?

> TBH. It really feels as if you are inventing reasons why right to work checks should be considered "excessive" to shoehorn in your own personal politics.

I'm just pointing out how a mandatory Digital ID system, designed to prove right to work as a way of tackling illegal immigration (and thus illegal employment), could also benefit groups who aren't well-served by the current system.

Re: Digital ID – The New Chains of Capitalist Surveillance

#177

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Oct 03, 2025, 12:30 PM UTC

agedclock wrote: post #156

octo888 wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> someone sufficiently middle-class. The accuracy of this made me chuckle out loud!

I don't consider a nurse or a pharmacist, or a pub landlord, or someone that own a Limited Company (anyone can setup a LTD) as middle class. Also what is wrong with being middle-class?

[deleted]

Re: Digital ID – The New Chains of Capitalist Surveillance

#178

Post by octo888 » Fri, Oct 03, 2025, 12:31 PM UTC

agedclock wrote: post #156

octo888 wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> someone sufficiently middle-class. The accuracy of this made me chuckle out loud!

I don't consider a nurse or a pharmacist, or a pub landlord, or someone that own a Limited Company (anyone can setup a LTD) as middle class. Also what is wrong with being middle-class?

Exactly. They're middle class sounding enough (sufficiently middle class). That's what's funny

And nobody said there anything wrong with being middle class.

Re: Digital ID – The New Chains of Capitalist Surveillance

#179

Post by octo888 » Fri, Oct 03, 2025, 12:33 PM UTC

microtonal wrote: post #25

octo888 wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We're likely getting Oracle digital ID. The UK gov of course is going to contract it out

We don't they ask some European partners? Some have great ID systems. In The Netherlands we have DigiD, which was developed by a government organization and works very well. IIRC Estonia als has a digital identity system that works well.

Because the UK gov doesn't want a system like theirs.

You don't need to keep Europsplaining to Brits. We aren't all idiots. We know you have ID cards etc and we know about Estonia.

Also if we reject one your ideas, it's not always because we misunderstood it - we can understand it AND think it's a bad idea. I know that often hurts the egos of Germans, the French and the Dutch ;(!

It's funny because it's often Europeans not understanding British politics...the irony ;)

Re: Digital ID – The New Chains of Capitalist Surveillance

#180

Post by jcgl » Fri, Oct 03, 2025, 12:34 PM UTC

pjc50 wrote: post #65

ta20240528 wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Should everyone be required to use private banks to access e.g. foreign exchange? The answer is yes: which is why banks are licensed and have ombudsmen. As are telcos. No modern society is going to maintain a parallel government economy to serve the vanishingly small minority who live in fear of private companies. Perhaps they should (IDK), but they won't.

Telcos are licensed. Mobile phone manufacturers and, crucially, OS providers, are not. Although in the EU they are now subject to some Digital Markets Act control.

And telco licensing isn't even really relevant. Afaik, licensing condition only has to do with their use of the airwaves and other such technical stuff. It's got nothing to do with ensuring the rights of the telco users.