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Thoughts on Mechanical Keyboards and the ZSA Moonlander

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Re: Thoughts on Mechanical Keyboards and the ZSA Moonlander

#171

Post by wahnfrieden »

microtonal wrote: post #117
wahnfrieden wrote: post #25

I love my Glove80 with Pro Red chocs. Kinesis Advantage for 15 years before that one. Another commenter complained that it feels insubstantial. However its light weight is much preferred for travel. It's fine.

100% agree. I have almost never travelled with my Advantage2 or 360 when I still had them. But the Glove80 is so light that it’s easy to carry with me. The Advantage helped me a lot, but the Glove80 is the only keyboard I’ve truly loved using. The key well is insanely well-designed and even though the tenting is a bit of work to set up, it is really tailored to my preferred angle. MoErgo is also expanding the Choc ke…

I dislike the tenting and often lose them so I just put something under the keyboard halves to tilt them. Later I want to get their mounting kit and just use these tiny pocket tripods I have (can't find the name but they have no rod), or find a good way to put magsafe rings on them to use with other sturdy mini tripods I have.

Re: Thoughts on Mechanical Keyboards and the ZSA Moonlander

#172

Post by fireflash38 »

makeitdouble wrote: post #121
userbinator wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am curious how/if you were formally taught how to type, and whether you hit the keys with sharp and abrupt movements. Of those whom I've seen develop RSI, a common trend I've noticed is they type very "discretely", with a very noticeable pause between each keypress, and use a lot more force than necessary. They were also taught that that was the "correct" way to type, adhere strictly to a sub-optimal fingering patt…

The more generic trend could be people who perfectly hit the same keys the same way again and again. I've seen it with people religiously sticking to an optimal typing method which limits their hand movement to an extreme. They were crazy fast but RSI was a common subject of discussion, regardless of posture or hardware quality. We had the same issue with gaming controllers, some with guitar learning etc. There's a l…

Agreed. I had wrist pain when I played a lot of WoW - rogue, especially outlaw, is not kind to the hands.

I solved it in a couple of ways:

1. Quit wow

2. Rock climbing. Get stronger, especially forearm and finger strength. I can't emphasize enough how much this helps over even carpal tunnel braces or whatever. The biggest single thing that stopped wrist pain.

Re: Thoughts on Mechanical Keyboards and the ZSA Moonlander

#174

Post by seec »

kstrauser wrote: post #99
Twey wrote: post #73

> proponents of mechanical keyboards say you need fewer keys than a regular keyboard, for _reasons_ That's a bit of a generalization. Mechanical keyboards like the Hyper7 exist that have enough for even the most key-hungry typist. If you want an ergonomic mechanical keyboard with many keys there are also some of those out there, like the Kinesis line or the Glove80. That said, one thing people mean by ‘ergonomic’ is…

My parents sent me to years of piano lessons before I ever touched a computer keyboard, and my typing reflects it. I don't move my wrist. I move my entire hand. This drove my high school typing teacher nuts, but I was the fastest in class by a wide margin so he didn't push back too hard. I've tried traditional home-row typing but I just can't do it. And after all these years, my wrists still don't hurt at all. I can'…

I think it's how it should be done. You just executed the task intuitively, without any preconceived instruction as to the "best" way to do things.

Most of the time, those selling the best way to do stuff have a rigid way of thinking/operating and seem to have rules for everything in life and they think it applies to everyone the same, even though we are clearly all different.

Very often it's actually counterproductive and doesn't get you much better performance, touch typing is one of those things. It's a rigid theory made to form human robots that would spend all day typing stuff from other peoples (basically secretaries, re-copying stuff or typing dictated material). It focuses on typing speed at the expense of everything else. And is completely pointless because the speed difference between a touch typist and a self taught typist is completely negligible for 99% of tasks.

Re: Thoughts on Mechanical Keyboards and the ZSA Moonlander

#175

Post by Jcampuzano2 »

atoav wrote: post #149
Jcampuzano2 wrote: post #8

I started having RSI issues 2 years ago, what a way to welcome me to my 30s. It was excruciatingly painful just getting through a workday even with plenty of breaks. I didn't care for building my own keyboard I literally just wanted something to help me not be in pain no matter how weird it looked. I've ended up on a Kinesis advantage 360 pro after spending thousands of dollars on keyboards because I needed something…

Having been extensively on computers for the past 25 years and I have never experienced the whole keyboard-/mouse-pain thing even in the slightest on myself. I know many collegues who did tho. I wonder whether this has to do with me being a bass and guitar player. Playing an instrument where you essentially press down thick steel wires with your finger tips with full force, while your fingers are in odd angled ("unhe…

Sadly I actually stopped playing guitar because of my issues after having played for almost 20 years.

I'd played guitar since I was 12 years old and probably averaged at least an hour a day basically the entire time even into adulthood. Played obviously a hell of a lot more when I was a teenager though.i also was competing in powerlifting and used my grip and fingers for all sorts of stuff.

I had surgery on both elbows and am told I may need to on my hands/wrists since the issue is a combination of nerve issues and wrist issues.

Re: Thoughts on Mechanical Keyboards and the ZSA Moonlander

#176

Post by lawn »

Arrowmaster wrote: post #35
waynesonfire wrote: post #23

Those thumbs are doing a lot of work. Can't imagine that being ergonomic.

Thumbs are one of your stronger fingers. In contrast the pinky is by far the weakest but we have dedicated it to almost every modifier and outlying key. I currently use an Elora from SplitKB so I can't speak to the Moonlanders thumb cluster, but if you find one you like it's a massive difference in how much usage you can get out of your thumbs while typing.

Thumbs are also less agile than all the other fingers, so having it move around a lot is not great.

Also, RSI on your thumb (especially with smartphone usage) is very common.

So yes, you should probably have the most frequent keys on your thumbs but only very few (I'd say 1-2).

Re: Thoughts on Mechanical Keyboards and the ZSA Moonlander

#177

Post by Jcampuzano2 »

userbinator wrote: post #77
Jcampuzano2 wrote: post #8

I started having RSI issues 2 years ago, what a way to welcome me to my 30s. It was excruciatingly painful just getting through a workday even with plenty of breaks. I didn't care for building my own keyboard I literally just wanted something to help me not be in pain no matter how weird it looked. I've ended up on a Kinesis advantage 360 pro after spending thousands of dollars on keyboards because I needed something…

I am curious how/if you were formally taught how to type, and whether you hit the keys with sharp and abrupt movements. Of those whom I've seen develop RSI, a common trend I've noticed is they type very "discretely", with a very noticeable pause between each keypress, and use a lot more force than necessary. They were also taught that that was the "correct" way to type, adhere strictly to a sub-optimal fingering patt…

I was not taught to formally type and learned pretty much exclusively from playing PC games. Primarily wold of Warcraft.

I did not "touch type" in the traditional sense of correct form and using the home row, but I didn't need to look at the keyboard. I typed around 120wpm like this though at the time. I have not and probably never will get back to this speed typing on the Kinesis. I'm closer to just 90-100wpm with stricter typing technique. But usually try not to type as fast as I can anymore anyway. I still to this day type faster with my crap form on a laptop keyboard if I swap to it for a bit even though I rarely do anymore.

My typing form was honestly atrocious. If I were to describe it I covered over wasd with my left hand as if I was gaming, and pinky was only ever really used for modifier keys and shifting. I only used left shift, never right. My right hand I used index finger for spacebar and moved my entire hand to the spacebar between every word. I didn't even realize I did this until I sat and analyzed my typing form maybe a year ago to compare to correct touch typing.

It actually took me quite a while to learn to type on a split keyboard since I basically had to learn to type correctly from scratch.

Re: Thoughts on Mechanical Keyboards and the ZSA Moonlander

#178

Post by seec »

ivanb wrote: post #130

The whole area is full of contradictions: - mechanical keys - reduced movement; - buy a custom build - have industrial build quality; - barely any movement - good blood flow; - avoid rolling - type fast; - concave keyboards - tenting; - fewer keys - minimal; - uniformly shaped keys - touch typing feedback; - keep hands on the keyboard - move pointer precisely; - custom layout - conventional shortcuts. This is ridicul…

This actually exists in every field to some extent.

Humans get bored and at some point, we need to make complicated answers/explications/justifications to stuff that are actually very simple.

Saying, just practice, pay attention and measure/test progress doesn't cut it for many; especially since some don't want to come to the realization that they'll probably never get better because of their own limitations.

This is why there are always people selling "solutions" that are mostly snake oil, the promise is always that it'll get better, faster, stronger, whatever.

One area that is ripe with those sorts of things is weight loss. It is an extremely simple problem, just eat less calories than you consume and you'll be good. But since humans are faillible and sometimes have hard time making progress, you get all kinds of protocols/tools and whatnot that only achieve the same goal but in a roundabout way.

If people believe in them, sometimes it helps (most of the time not). This is the exact same with keyboards, the problem is not at all with the keyboard, it's all lack of physical activity and bad posture. But saying: just take breaks, do calisthenics (or swimming or any full body workout sport really) and it will get better doesn't satisfy many. Those who want a "quick fix" they can buy are disappointed and those who want to sell a "solution" can't push their snake oil that would make them money (they often are believers themselves, so it doesn't matter if it doesn't really make a difference).

Re: Thoughts on Mechanical Keyboards and the ZSA Moonlander

#179

Post by qyckudnefDi5 »

microtonal wrote: post #112
Jcampuzano2 wrote: post #8

I started having RSI issues 2 years ago, what a way to welcome me to my 30s. It was excruciatingly painful just getting through a workday even with plenty of breaks. I didn't care for building my own keyboard I literally just wanted something to help me not be in pain no matter how weird it looked. I've ended up on a Kinesis advantage 360 pro after spending thousands of dollars on keyboards because I needed something…

Runner up is the glove 80, but the only thing is I don't like how flimsy it feels in my hands compared to how solid the kinesis feels. Glove80 has a better key well and thumb cluster for most people though. I have made a detailed comparison here: https://danieldk.eu/MoErgo-Glove80-Review Also agree with the sibling commenters. In order, get: - Help from an expert/exercise/do very regular breaks. - A properly adjustab…

Have you tried any of the splitkb keyboards? If so, how do they compare to the kinesis adv 2?

Re: Thoughts on Mechanical Keyboards and the ZSA Moonlander

#180

Post by ziml77 »

DanHulton wrote: post #79
Jcampuzano2 wrote: post #8

I started having RSI issues 2 years ago, what a way to welcome me to my 30s. It was excruciatingly painful just getting through a workday even with plenty of breaks. I didn't care for building my own keyboard I literally just wanted something to help me not be in pain no matter how weird it looked. I've ended up on a Kinesis advantage 360 pro after spending thousands of dollars on keyboards because I needed something…

As an FYI, I had a similar issue and tried a whole lot of things, including different mechanical keyboards, with which I had a variety of successes and failures. But ultimately what REALLY helped was going to physiotherapy and identifying muscle groups in my back that were weak, causing me to sit weird and support my arms with muscles in my shoulders that weren't designed for that. And because all of this is connecte…

I wonder if anyone who's switched to an ergonomic setup has found that it stops working as well over time. Because I have long suspected that the real problems (in many cases) come down to weak muscles. But these ergonomic setups are likely to weaken them even more over a long enough period of time given that they try to avoid all of the strain.
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