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ChatControl: EU wants to scan all private messages, even in encrypted apps

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Re: ChatControl: EU wants to scan all private messages, even in encrypted apps

#171

Post by KPGv2 »

quotemstr wrote: post #26
contravariant wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The accepted solution is to have a constitution that says otherwise. Which is a bit complicated here, as the EU has no real constitution and this 'law' (really a regulation) is a blatant violation of the constitutions of countries that did choose to establish secrecy of correspondence.

> The accepted solution is to have a constitution that says otherwise. Constitutions don't enforce themselves. The US constitution has a crystal clear right to bear arms but multiple jurisdictions ignore it and multiple supreme court rulings and make firearm ownership functionally impossible anyway. Free speech regulations have, thankfully, been more robust. The only thing that stops bad things happening is a critica…

> The US constitution has a crystal clear right to bear arms

It looks like it was drafted by an ESL speaker. It's by far the worst-drafted amendment, grammatically speaking:

> A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

It's not even a valid English sentence, and it certainly never bothers to define "Arms." Not to mention that, as written, it appears to make it illegal for me to tell you that you cannot come to my house with a gun, because that's me infringing your right. It doesn't constrain Congress. It constrained anyone who wants to take away your right to bear arms.

Sheer lunacy as written. Ungrammatical and implies some insane shit.

But no, you're right, it's crystal clear. Much like how the First Amendment says

> Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press

which in crystal clear terms makes it legal to mass-distribute child pornography. To prohibit it would restrict the freedom of the press.

Re: ChatControl: EU wants to scan all private messages, even in encrypted apps

#172

Post by _9ptr »

platevoltage wrote: post #139
quotemstr wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The accepted solution is to have a constitution that says otherwise. Constitutions don't enforce themselves. The US constitution has a crystal clear right to bear arms but multiple jurisdictions ignore it and multiple supreme court rulings and make firearm ownership functionally impossible anyway. Free speech regulations have, thankfully, been more robust. The only thing that stops bad things happening is a critica…

I'm not here to argue about the right to bear arms in the USA, but the 2nd amendment is anything but crystal clear in its language.

Seems pretty clear to me, although I'm neither an american nor a lawyer.

Re: ChatControl: EU wants to scan all private messages, even in encrypted apps

#173

Post by terramoto »

ben_w wrote: post #147
tomkarho wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The only way I see to prevent the constant pushing is that every single time some council or committee presents something like this every single of one of their private communication gets leaked for everyone to peruse at their leisure from whatsapp to bank statements. They want to erode people's privacy? Let them walk their talk first and see how that goes.

Tempting though that is, I think that's the wrong way to resolve it: The people proposing it (law people) are a different culture than us (computer people), and likely have a funamental misunderstanding about the necessary consequences of what they're asking for. Two cultures: https://benwheatley.github.io/blog/2024/05/25-12.04.31.html

Why would they exclude themselves from the rule if they werent worry about it? Its not like theres no pedophiles in those positions. I wonder who are they going to offer the job of watching the photos of families with kids for this.

Re: ChatControl: EU wants to scan all private messages, even in encrypted apps

#174

Post by nikkwong »

WinstonSmith84 wrote: post #163
nikkwong wrote: post #151

Imagine a future where it becomes easier to commit terrorism because of some technological advancements—like smaller, less traceable bombs, or chemical weapons that are easily accessible and lead to higher casualties—like in the 1,000s or more. Imagine in that scenario, that the likelihood of you or someone you know becoming the victim of a terrorist attack is now non-trivial in your society. In a future where this b…

did you write this message with ChatGPT? > .. like smaller, less traceable bombs, or chemical weapons that are easily accessible and lead to higher casualties .. it's very easy to build a bomb, you just need to "google" and make your shopping... Killing random people in the street is easy too, you have, among others, knifes - very easy to buy and commit a crime in side streets, etc.

No I did not use chatgpt. I've always written with a lot of em dashes, Chatgpt probably got it from me :-)

> it's very easy to build a bomb [...]

Yeah, what I'm saying though is that these attacks are not happening at a scale though that is large enough for people to need to worry about their own safety personally. Your personal chance of dying in a terrorist attack is so low that it's not worth thinking about (unless maybe you live in the middle east). I'm simply noting that this might not always be the case. It's easy to imagine, with better weapons, that terrorists become much more prolific in their ability to kill; under which scenario people could be willing to give up more to have more peace of mind.

Re: ChatControl: EU wants to scan all private messages, even in encrypted apps

#175

Post by LexiMax »

DangitBobby wrote: post #102
Imustaskforhelp wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think of constitution as a contract between the citizens and the state and the (judiciary?) Like, constitution both defines the rights of citizens and the limits of those rights and the same goes for the states. I feel as if the creators of constitutions think that it is a set of checks and balances... Just as if how a citizen violates something written in the constitution, the state can punish it. In the same mann…

A large portion of the population either does not believe or does not mind the violations of our constitution to achieve their desired outcomes. As an American, it came as a surprise to me that we do not, in fact, have broadly shared values about our system of governance. This year has been a devastating blow to my confidence in our democracy and the ability of people to govern themselves generally.

> This year has been a devastating blow to my confidence in our democracy and the ability of people to govern themselves generally.

The latter has been on my mind for quite some time.

The logical conclusion of "people can't govern themselves generally" kind of gestures at religion as a solution - after all, if man cannot govern themselves, why not rely on a higher power to manage them?

Of course, the problem with that point of view is that from the atheistic perspective, there is no higher power, and from the agnostic perspective, whatever higher power there is is inscrutable and beyond our ken.

This then leads me to the conclusion that religion is ultimately a creation of men, and are thus prone to the same power-corrupting vices as any other institution created by men.

Except that leaves no real solution the problem of the governance of people. And it's a quandary I see no realistic chance of escape from.

Re: ChatControl: EU wants to scan all private messages, even in encrypted apps

#176

Post by _9ptr »

KPGv2 wrote: post #171
quotemstr wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The accepted solution is to have a constitution that says otherwise. Constitutions don't enforce themselves. The US constitution has a crystal clear right to bear arms but multiple jurisdictions ignore it and multiple supreme court rulings and make firearm ownership functionally impossible anyway. Free speech regulations have, thankfully, been more robust. The only thing that stops bad things happening is a critica…

> The US constitution has a crystal clear right to bear arms It looks like it was drafted by an ESL speaker. It's by far the worst-drafted amendment, grammatically speaking: > A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed. It's not even a valid English sentence, and it certainly never bothers to define "Arms." Not to me…

Remove the first and last comma and the sentence works splendidly

Re: ChatControl: EU wants to scan all private messages, even in encrypted apps

#177

Post by postepowanieadm »

haolez wrote: post #3

I think the challenge for society here is not to simply reject attempts like this, but how to prevent them from being pushed over and over until a specific context allows it to be approved.

Can't be done. It's pushed by the Commission - the technocratic deep state.

Re: ChatControl: EU wants to scan all private messages, even in encrypted apps

#178

Post by aduwah »

baalimago wrote: post #166

So what if I host my own messaging service? As in: bring back IRC?

The way I understand if your solution would become popular, the law can come after you to provide a log of messages in plain text.

Also they will have the legal power to force the popular operating systems to enforce generic keylogging/packet capturing and whatnot.

Re: ChatControl: EU wants to scan all private messages, even in encrypted apps

#179

Post by xp84 »

From the article, the current flavor of "threat" this is being positioned to fight is CSAM.

Does anyone believe that predators commit those heinous offenses because of the availability of encrypted channels to distribute those products of their crimes? I sure don't. The materials exist because of predators' access to children, which these surveillance measures won't solve.

Best case scenario (and this is wildly optimistic) the offenders won't be able to find any 'safe' channels to distribute their materials to each other. The authorities really think every predator will just give up and stop abusing just because of that? What a joke.

More likely of course, those criminals will just use decentralized tools that can't be suppressed or monitored, even as simple as plain old GPG and email. Therefore nothing of value will be gained from removing all privacy from all communication.

Re: ChatControl: EU wants to scan all private messages, even in encrypted apps

#180

Post by _9ptr »

gameman144 wrote: post #90
Imustaskforhelp wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think of constitution as a contract between the citizens and the state and the (judiciary?) Like, constitution both defines the rights of citizens and the limits of those rights and the same goes for the states. I feel as if the creators of constitutions think that it is a set of checks and balances... Just as if how a citizen violates something written in the constitution, the state can punish it. In the same mann…

> I concur (fancy word for believe which I wanted to share lol) you are talking about america. Just a heads up but concur means "agree", not "believe"

I assent to that statement
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