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Java 25 officially released

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Re: Java 25 officially released

#171

Post by ameliaquining »

mdaniel wrote: post #168
ameliaquining wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is Swing good now? Usually when people say Java is good now I assume they're not talking about Swing.

As a point of reference, JetBrains platform is on top of swing, and I'd guess that's a significant contributor to why they're able to deliver consistently across Linux, macOS, and Windows. Unlike Eclipse SWT which ships native code for all the platforms it targets

My understanding is that JetBrains puts a heroic amount of effort into making their Swing components not look terrible, and that they can do this because they're a well-resourced engineering-centric company whose main product is a GUI app whose users spend all day in it and often pay for it out of pocket. That Swing might be underrated for this use case (if you also need to ship cross-platform) is an intriguing possibility, but different from whether it's a good choice for the marginal GUI app.

Re: Java 25 officially released

#172

Post by pjmlp »

TheFreim wrote: post #133
stevoski wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> JetBrains is very much recent. JetBrains is 25 years old, almost as old as Java.

Around 10 years ago Eclipse was still the primary editor in the circles I was in.

Still is on my circles, and at home I have been always a Netbeans fan.

I am an IDE guy since Borland products for MS-DOS, yet I was never sold on InteliJ anyway, and Android Studio made me dislike it even further.

Re: Java 25 officially released

#173

Post by re-thc »

lisbbb wrote: post #155
cgh wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Java is hugely popular and widely used on large backend systems. I guess a lot of people here don't work on such systems? I'm always surprised when I see comments like the parent, since in my career exposure to Java is near-ubiquitous.

I think the rise of containers and being able to compile and run natively has eliminated the argument that would favor the JVM. It's so easy to fully control your dev and deployment environments now using Docker images and to me, that's a far better solution. tl;dr -- containers eliminate Java long term.

> tl;dr -- containers eliminate Java long term

Why can't they co-exist?

> has eliminated the argument that would favor the JVM

This complaint is taking technology definitions too literally. I doubt new adopters of Java or the JVM are really going on about that now. It's more been about the ecosystem, the maturity, etc.

Re: Java 25 officially released

#174

Post by signal11 »

samus wrote: post #88
Foomf wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oracle makes me too uneasy. Can I use Java without the worry of incurring Oracle's wrath? Maybe, if I make sure I use openjdk/jump through some hoops I'll be fine. Or, I could just use any other language and not have that worry looming over me. C# is right there if I want a java-like experience without the anxiety of Oracle breaking my kneecaps. I don't know how to use java and not violate one of Oracle's EULAs. I co…

Just use OpenJDK (only downside is you have to upgrade every half year) or a distribution of another vendor (most people use Eclipse, or Red Hat if they already are Red Hats customers). It's really not as difficult as it is made out to be. If you use Oracle's distribution of the JDK then you are an enterprise customer and should have the resources to deal with their license terms.

> only downside is you have to upgrade every half year

LTS OpenJDK distributions from eg Eclipse (17, 21 etc) stick around for longer[1]. Heck, you can still get updates for JDK 11 and even 8.

You do have to update the runtime for security and other fixes, but that’s true for other languages too.

[1] https://adoptium.net/support

Re: Java 25 officially released

#175

Post by Yhippa »

I've been away from the Java world for the past 4 years, and I really miss it. I hope I can get back to it soon.

This is cool: https://openjdk.org/jeps/512 (JEP 512: Compact Source Files and Instance Main Methods). It will allow beginners to progressively ease into the language and remove arbitrary gatekeeping from the language itself.

I also went down the rabbit hole on the Shenandoah GC JEP and learned that it was actually named after the Shenandoah Valley. Super cool.

Re: Java 25 officially released

#176

Post by re-thc »

fnord77 wrote: post #68
lukev wrote: post #39

More new programs should be written in Java/on the JVM. Most of the reasons Java dropped out of popularity no longer apply, and at this point it is an incredibly stable and mature ecosystem. I can come back to a Clojure program I wrote ten years ago and it runs great , meanwhile a TypeScript program I write 6 months ago requires a bunch of updating and cleanup.

I think Java is the best language for most medium to large projects or anything that requires threading or complicated/optimized IO Especially now that hardware architectures are getting fragmented again, I hope it becomes more relevant. I think Springframework is dragging Java's reputation down. I know Spring boot is better but it's such a monstrosity. I feel like sadly Python has won the war, though. Good enough fo…

> I think Java is the best language for most medium to large projects

With this in context...

> I think Springframework is dragging Java's reputation down. I know Spring boot is better but it's such a monstrosity.

Is that really so? Spring's not the best, but it's definitely better in medium / large environments than a lot of other 1s. There are way more train wrecks to maintain that especially don't have any documentation or the libraries have gone dead.

Re: Java 25 officially released

#177

Post by re-thc »

Noe2097 wrote: post #90
cgh wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Java is hugely popular and widely used on large backend systems. I guess a lot of people here don't work on such systems? I'm always surprised when I see comments like the parent, since in my career exposure to Java is near-ubiquitous.

There has been a move in the past 8 years away from Java on the back end, notably to Go, by several large engineering organizations, which made the move, "motivated" by the example of companies like Google or by projects like Kubernetes, and seduced by the promises of a language simple to learn, build, and deploy.

> by several large engineering organizations, which made the move

The problem with this type of trend is it's often hype and you never know what actually happens or how does it evolve over time.

I've seen organizations make certain announcements, switch maybe 5%, give up and go in different directions, but only the initial announcement ever hit the news.

> and seduced by the promises of a language simple to learn, build, and deploy

It's always simple if you rip it all up. Nice and shiny toys are always great.

Re: Java 25 officially released

#179

Post by troupo »

porridgeraisin wrote: post #85
sorokod wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a culture, not language thing. Here is a JSON parser implementation (part of PlantUML) that lacks endless levels of abstraction. https://github.com/plantuml/plantuml/blob/master/src/main/ja...

I'd argue culture solely defines the language. Is there a full library ecosystem of stuff written like the json parser you shared, which is as complete as the enterprisey library ecosystem? Similarly, SO answers? LLM output? Tutorials? YouTube videos? I think the answer is no. It's the same problem with C#. Just adding alternate paradigms means nothing. The only thing that matters is how a majority of code in the eco…

> It's the same problem with C#. Just adding alternate paradigms means nothing.

C# is still much better because it has a lot of useful DX improvements: from object initializers to IEnumerable everywhere. It keeps the tower of abstractions lower, and makes working with the tower a better experience.

Though I've only worked on microservices written in C# in .net core

Re: Java 25 officially released

#180

Post by cryptos »

fnord77 wrote: post #69

It's a damn shame that project Valhalla still isn't finished. This would fix so much and open up java for better matrix math support

The first time I heard about Valhalla was 2014 (if I remember correctly), so more than a decade ago! However, I'm very happy how Java is engineered. It is really the exception that a technology is so carefully developed. Java is the technology you want for long-term stability.
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