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Chat Control Must Be Stopped

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Re: Chat Control Must Be Stopped

#171

Post by beeflet »

tremon wrote: post #158
nine_k wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US constitution already has a provision against unreasonable search properly enshrined, and well tested in courts. Things like KOSA can be rejected as clearly violating it. The EU does not seem to have such simple and ironclad norm.

Ah, that constitution must explain why we never see people being abducted in broad daylight by goon squads in the US, right? Because anything that clearly violates the constitution would obviously never happen there. Because you're the best country. The greatest. For reference, the EU does have an equivalent norm: https://fra.europa.eu/en/eu-charter/article/7-respect-privat...

I'm not sure if the 4th amendment applies to deportation of non-citizens, and secondly you would have to take it to supreme court to find out.

In comparison to the US constitution, EU "norms" might as well be toilet paper. For example, they have some notion of "free expression" which sounds like free speech but is defined to be so weak as to be useless. The european public broadly does not seem to care, they certainly aren't willing to kill for their rights.

Re: Chat Control Must Be Stopped

#172

Post by dchftcs »

0x008 wrote: post #39

This is one of many laws the EU and member states are pushing in order to implement more online surveillance. I always wonder why individuals (representatives) would push for these kind of surveillance laws? I think politicians usually pass laws which help themselves or their lobbies gain power and influence on economical levels, but I wonder why anyone would push for these kind of legislation even before an authorit…

Even if a system doesn't look authoritarian, corruption happens all the time. Those involved in corruption naturally want more power for themselves. Additionally some people actively thirst for more power for whatever reasons, and most people don't want to be constrained in their jobs, and they are all aligned in expanding governmental power. You need some discipline to commit to the idea that "I don't want the ability to see encrypted chats, even if that makes my job 90% easier to do", and I don't trust most people to have it.

Re: Chat Control Must Be Stopped

#173

Post by beeflet »

01HNNWZ0MV43FF wrote: post #40
BoredPositron wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fatigue? We are fighting this with different names since 2002. I guess normal people just can't hear about it anymore and that's probably on purpose.

It's hard to reach normal people, too. At least here in America the right wing has consolidated a lot of propaganda power into cable news like Fox

Blast! Those propagandists will soon have an iron grip over every nursing home in the country that forgot to cancel their cable subscription.

Re: Chat Control Must Be Stopped

#174

Post by GartzenDeHaes »

asdff wrote: post #140
puppycodes wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I predict a massive uptick in linux use

How long until hardware vendors prevent you from installing a certified OS that is specifically not anything like linux? Before you call it a conspiracy, know that we are already there with our phones, which represent an overwhelming share of consumer compute use today.

Hardware attestation. They say vendors are pushing this like crazy at security and government conferences.

Re: Chat Control Must Be Stopped

#175

Post by kogasa240p »

puppycodes wrote: post #119
petertodd wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Chat control will require client-side AI scanning of all messages, bypassing end-to-end encryption. Since the AI will be an unauditable blackbox, it will make it effectively illegal to have secure end-to-end encryption. Yes, it is that fascist.

I predict a massive uptick in linux use

Until TPM shenanigans take root and you're only allowed to use locked down devices to use the internet.

Re: Chat Control Must Be Stopped

#176

Post by beeflet »

chairmansteve wrote: post #77
Humorist2290 wrote: post #10

> Chat Control would make it mandatory for all service providers (text messaging, email, social media, cloud storage, hosting services, etc.) to scan all communications and all files (including end-to-end encrypted ones), in order to supposedly detect whatever the government deems "abusive material." I wonder why there has been such silence on this, with the exception of a handful of well written blog posts. The scop…

Anybody who thinks they have online privacy is deluded. Regardless of Chat Control.

Wowee! Good point sir, might as well hand all of my rights away because they are sometimes infringed already.

If you give away something for nothing, that usually means you're a sucker. But it takes a real genius to justify giving everything away for nothing.

Re: Chat Control Must Be Stopped

#177

Post by zamadatix »

jjangkke wrote: post #86

Weird the countries that are all in agreement with chat control all have migration/integration related problems now at odds with local european population that have grown fatigue to the excessive empathy and virtue signaling that have eroded their own identity and safety. Could it be that this is a last ditched attempt to presumably stop a civil war that seems to be brewing by predominantly muslim vs european populat…

Can you expand more on how many of the key seeming counterexamples to this in the map support this conclusion (e.g. DE should be the most red of them all, no?) or how the desire for CSAM surveillance is a proxy for the mixing rate of different religions in the regions? It feels unlikely we will agree about it, but I'm curious what you're seeing in this data that makes it seem so clearly the causal reason to you.

Re: Chat Control Must Be Stopped

#178

Post by thw_9a83c »

latexr wrote: post #154
thw_9a83c wrote: post #94

As both an EU citizen and a computer programmer, I applaud this article, and I generally agree with its sentiment. But let's be realistic. Chat control is going to happen sooner or later. This is a Hacker News forum. The audience here is very knowledgeable about computer science and fully aware of how technologically impractical the idea of fighting CSAM in this way is. But the general public is somewhere else entire…

> Chat control is going to happen sooner or later. Even if that is true—which you don’t know, because you cannot predict the future—later is definitely better than sooner. Later is worth fighting for. Your defeatist attitude is exactly what these bad actors want, you’re playing right into their hands. Thankfully not everyone thinks like you, or Chat Control would have passed first time and no positive change would ha…

I beg your pardon. :) I already explained that I did my part and the result was hopeless. Perhaps you should do your part, too. Don't bother arguing on Hacker News, because it has no material effect on the EU population outside the narrow IT crowd. Besides, I'm not a defeatist at all, because I know GnuPG! However, the non-IT EU civilians who also coincidentally agreed with this, are unfortunately lost.

Re: Chat Control Must Be Stopped

#179

Post by on_the_train »

mnls wrote: post #95

Don't worry people. If you are not a European let me tell you how it goes. The 'Unofficial' boss of European Union is Germany. If Germany will vote against it, more countries will back off and it won't pass. If Germany wants ChatControl, it's over. It will pass and all other undecided countries will support it. Thankfully, Germany (so far) is against it.

Germany isn't the boss of anything. When it comes to yielding power, France always gets the upper hand. Always

Re: Chat Control Must Be Stopped

#180

Post by JoshTriplett »

beeflet wrote: post #171
tremon wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah, that constitution must explain why we never see people being abducted in broad daylight by goon squads in the US, right? Because anything that clearly violates the constitution would obviously never happen there. Because you're the best country. The greatest. For reference, the EU does have an equivalent norm: https://fra.europa.eu/en/eu-charter/article/7-respect-privat...

I'm not sure if the 4th amendment applies to deportation of non-citizens, and secondly you would have to take it to supreme court to find out. In comparison to the US constitution, EU "norms" might as well be toilet paper. For example, they have some notion of "free expression" which sounds like free speech but is defined to be so weak as to be useless. The european public broadly does not seem to care, they certainl…

> I'm not sure if the 4th amendment applies to deportation of non-citizens

Leaving aside everything else wrong with it: in the absence of due process, that can happen to citizens too.

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